Detroit OTP woes continue

[David Benton]

There’s more than enough room for Amtrak to have its own railroad between Porter and Chicago if it wants it. That’s also discounting the possibility of sharing the South Shore from Kensington Jct all the way out to South Bend, or self-owning a third track parallel to the NS Chicago Line. The fact that Amtrak didn’t secure its own Chicago entry in the Conrail formation is pretty ludicrous when it was given a neighboring chunk of rail (Porter to K-zoo), but it still has the opportunity to do so today.

Whether it would help OTP from the east, or if Amtrak would just cause its own delays, I don’t know.

Is that how it happened? i thought the state brought the Amtrak section from the freight railroad around 5 - 10 years ago ?

[WesternNation]

There’s more than enough room for Amtrak to have its own railroad between Porter and Chicago if it wants it. That’s also discounting the possibility of sharing the South Shore from Kensington Jct all the way out to South Bend, or self-owning a third track parallel to the NS Chicago Line. The fact that Amtrak didn’t secure its own Chicago entry in the Conrail formation is pretty ludicrous when it was given a neighboring chunk of rail (Porter to K-zoo), but it still has the opportunity to do so today.

Whether it would help OTP from the east, or if Amtrak would just cause its own delays, I don’t know.

Is that how it happened? i thought the state brought the Amtrak section from the freight railroad around 5 - 10 years ago ?

Amtrak got the west section (Kalamazoo-Porter) from Conrail in the early '70s. Michigan DOT purchased the east section from Kalamazoo to CP Townline (Dearborn/Ypsilanti) from NS 5-10 years ago because NS downgraded much of that section to 25mph.

Assuming Amtrak purchases and constructs its own ROW between 482 and CUS, I expect it would help to alleviate at least some of the delays. The lift bridge at 502 might still be an issue, but Amtrak services are more or less "blocked" into/out of CUS right now, so a mid-day disruption by an open bridge would have minimal effect vs the Chicago Line, one of the busiest lines east of the Mississippi. Additionally, the lack of Amtrak services mid-day would give ample time for MOW and C&S employees to do their work minimal conflict. That, of course, would change if Amtrak adds additional service to MI, OH, and Northern IN, but it would still give Amtrak a ripe opportunity to get their trains into and out of Chicago. Plus, the lack of grade crossings on the route could provide Amtrak the chance to run faster into Chicago, making up even more time from delays. Precautions would need to be taken at all crossings the ROW would encounter, but once you get outside of the Porter/Ogden Dunes area, there aren't that many.

[rcthompson04]

I am a fan of the state funding concept that drives the corridors, but the Michigan Services highlights the biggest flaw in it... what happens when you have to go through a state that doesn’t play ball? The bulk of the problems with the Michigan to Chicago corridors are in Indiana and Illinois who has no incentive to pony up any funds to improve it. Such track improvements are hard to stomach if you are spending money in another state and aren’t the “sexy” things that get votes like new or better stations.

That doesn’t mean things cannot be improved, but the focus needs to be where Michigan can make the most impact, eliminating issues around Detroit and Battle Creek.

[WesternNation]

I am a fan of the state funding concept that drives the corridors, but the Michigan Services highlights the biggest flaw in it... what happens when you have to go through a state that doesn’t play ball? The bulk of the problems with the Michigan to Chicago corridors are in Indiana and Illinois who has no incentive to pony up any funds to improve it. Such track improvements are hard to stomach if you are spending money in another state and aren’t the “sexy” things that get votes like new or better stations.

That doesn’t mean things cannot be improved, but the focus needs to be where Michigan can make the most impact, eliminating issues around Detroit and Battle Creek.

Illinois has its own problems when it comes to Amtrak service (notably the Lincoln Service corridor that STILL isn't at 110mph) as well as trying to start new services to Chicago from the west side of the state. Indiana can't be expected to play ball given the traditional animosity to Amtrak from the state government, recently evidenced by the loss of the Hoosier State. It goes back to one of my earlier points: unless people realize that Amtrak is a public service and that its peers around the world are heavily subsidized by the government like airports and roads, nothing will change. Amtrak wants to grow. They want to improve and start giving airlines and cars a run for their money. But without capital to improve things, it won't happen. Notice how Congress opposed the loss of the LD services out west?

[SRich]

Still doesn’t solve the root problem, boss.

That’s the problem with people in this country. Everything has to make a profit for it to be deemed a success. It’s so ingrained into society it’s like any other option is seen not just as wrong, but as un-American.

Don’t get me wrong, Amtrak needs to be able to take care of themselves as much as possible. But most of the passenger rail systems in the world are heavily subsidized by their governments. If Amtrak were given the money it deserves and should’ve had 40 years ago, the NEC maintenance backlog wouldn’t be where it is now, we wouldn’t be running with 40-50 year old cars, new routes would be in the works, and Amtrak could explore its own ROW in heavily congested areas like the Chicago Line.

You can’t cut your way to profitability and it’s well past time for Congress to pull their head out of the sand and realize that Amtrak is a vital public service that is here to stay, and it needs to be treated as such. There is so much potential for Amtrak to grow into new markets and make the changes they need to make to be successful, but without capital it won’t happen, just like any other business.

Even where Amtrak provides decent service frequencies, the Northeast Corridor, it business is very small in comparison with commuter services over the NEC. Limiting the discussion to just commuter rail; LIRR has 89.8 million passengers per year, MTA North has 87 million passengers per year, MBTA has 32.8 million passengers per year, NJT has 47 million passengers per year, SEPTA has 37.4 million passengers per year, MARC has 9.1 million passengers per year, VRE has 4.8 million passengers per year; while Amtrak has 30-31 million passengers per year "nationally". Some math follows, and using the "national" data for Amtrak favors Amtrak.
89.8 + 87 + 32.8 + 47 + 37.4 + 9.1 + 4.8 = 307.9 million
307.9 / 31 = 9.93.
For every passenger "nationally" Amtrak has, the local commuter agencies on the NEC have 10 passengers. Considering some statistics indicating the NEC is half or less the "national" ridership, that turns into a 20 to 1 ratio for the NEC. I could suggest the local commuter rail agencies could pick up the slack if Amtrak's NEC operations were eliminated if funds that were going to Amtrak went to them instead.

The fact remains that Amtrak is not the only rail service provider on the NEC. I'm not going to suggest Amtrak does not provide a useful service, but I am suggesting American taxpayers along the NEC are subsidizing rail services from other providers than from just Amtrak alone. Discussions without including them does not reflect the as is situation of the real world.

But the NEC is not the Midwest, or the Michigan Amtrak services, with the complete lack of commuter rail agencies in Michigan. Never-the-less, Michigan subsidies Amtrak around $25 million per year to balance the Michigan Amtrak trains books. Therefore, Amtrak loses little money with its Michigan trains.

Oke, and your point?

[mtuandrew]

I don’t always agree with Tad, but here I think he has an important point: Indiana funds the South Shore but is unwilling to fund Amtrak, because it sees utility in one but not the other. Hence, funnel Amtrak onto the South Shore at both Michigan City (for Michigan Service) and South Bend (for Amtrak LD) and kick in extra Federal dollars to build second and third tracks, raise wire, and fund whatever improvements are needed for a 79/90/110 mph road. Separate the two roads at Kensington; NICTD continues to Millennium on Metra Electric, and Amtrak takes the CN line to either the St. Charles Air Line or the Nickel Plate flyover on its way to Chicago Union Station.

And Indiana becomes a true stakeholder in Amtrak for the first time.

[WesternNation]

I don’t always agree with Tad, but here I think he has an important point: Indiana funds the South Shore but is unwilling to fund Amtrak, because it sees utility in one but not the other. Hence, funnel Amtrak onto the South Shore at both Michigan City (for Michigan Service) and South Bend (for Amtrak LD) and kick in extra Federal dollars to build second and third tracks, raise wire, and fund whatever improvements are needed for a 79/90/110 mph road. Separate the two roads at Kensington; NICTD continues to Millennium on Metra Electric, and Amtrak takes the CN line to either the St. Charles Air Line or the Nickel Plate flyover on its way to Chicago Union Station.

And Indiana becomes a true stakeholder in Amtrak for the first time.

Where would the AML trains route onto the SSL? Ogden Dunes area?

It would also allow Amtrak to close the Amshack in Hammond/Whiting as well. They'd have to play ball with NICTD dispatchers too..would there be enough capacity to handle 14 Amtrak trains? Where would they route back to get to CUS?

[Backshophoss]

CP Townline to Detroit is CRSA Mi Division,Amtrak plays "Dodge Ball" with JIT switching moves to the automotive industries there.

[mtuandrew]

Where would the AML trains route onto the SSL? Ogden Dunes area?

Via the NIPSCO connection here, coming directly off the Michigan line. For LD trains from the east, it would additionally require construction of a Trail Creek Bridge east of the current bridge (long story revolving around a marina) and a rebuilt NS/South Shore connection in South Bend.

It would also allow Amtrak to close the Amshack in Hammond/Whiting as well. They'd have to play ball with NICTD dispatchers too..would there be enough capacity to handle 14 Amtrak trains? Where would they route back to get to CUS?

Probably wouldn’t have the capacity yet, it would need better signals and more double track. The CUS approach, either I’ll explain later or another poster will cover it.

[dgvrengineer]

I think the only way Amtrak will ever be the master of its own trains is to have its own track between Porter and CUS. I know it would be very expensive, but it is the only way not to be a slave to someone else whim. They could easily run into similar, but maybe not as frequent, problems with SS as with NS. Since the new line would be passenger only, it could have steeper grades for bridges over roads, other railroads and rivers to eliminate lift bridges and grade crossings. It could also have a higher maximum speed of 110 or 125. There are currently quite a few trains using this route and if corridor service expands(day trains to Cleveland, Toronto, Columbus) as Amtrak wants, there could be many more. The current situation with NS is unsustainable.

[mtuandrew]

DGVR: probably you’re right that Amtrak does need its own rail line. The nice thing about the South Shore plan I mentioned above is that it doesn’t lock Amtrak into anything. Assuming NRPC doesn’t abandon the line between Michigan City and Porter (or railbanks it intact), it could switch back over to that line and then purchase the CSX Porter Sub (ex-Michigan Central.) The only shared trackage would be South Shore between South Bend and Michigan City, which as I understand isn’t all that busy*, and would only take on four more trains as of today. Or, Amtrak could build a third main next to either South Shore or NS. Or it could rehabilitate the ex-Pennsy (current Chicago, Ft Wayne and Eastern) and plug in a line to intersect it from Porter. Or it could build in the Indiana Turnpike or I-94 right-of-way.

Any of those improvements would benefit Amtrak and/or South Shore, and by extension the entire Chicago region.

*though the South Shore main does go right through their shops complex in Michigan City - that would be a choke point.

[twropr]

A problem that is not being given proper attention on this thread is the poor performance of the Wolverines on their own railroad.
For instance #351, which has no opposing train meets east of Kalamazoo, has left KAL less than ten minutes late only eight times this year and has never been on time or early. It has five early arrivals into Chicago and six arrivals less than ten min. LT.
I believe the problem is ITCS issues. Yes, NS does a less than stellar job is dispatching the Chicago Line (certainly not as well as Conrail did); however, we need to consider Amtrak's self-inflicted problems as part of the overall OTP saga in MI.
Andy

[WesternNation]

I think the only way Amtrak will ever be the master of its own trains is to have its own track between Porter and CUS. I know it would be very expensive, but it is the only way not to be a slave to someone else whim. They could easily run into similar, but maybe not as frequent, problems with SS as with NS. Since the new line would be passenger only, it could have steeper grades for bridges over roads, other railroads and rivers to eliminate lift bridges and grade crossings. It could also have a higher maximum speed of 110 or 125. There are currently quite a few trains using this route and if corridor service expands(day trains to Cleveland, Toronto, Columbus) as Amtrak wants, there could be many more. The current situation with NS is unsustainable.

Absolutely agree, 100%. Building their own ROW is the only way Amtrak is going to be able to expand service since NS will not play ball. However, the one issue I can see on Google Maps is that the room for the Amtrak mains runs out around the area of the 63rd Street Yard. After the yard, you have the bridge over the Dan Ryan and then hemmed in by multiple yards and the street. Without a major realignment or selling off of the ROW, it won't be possible for Amtrak to avoid the NS main on the final stretch into CUS.

DGVR: probably you’re right that Amtrak does need its own rail line. The nice thing about the South Shore plan I mentioned above is that it doesn’t lock Amtrak into anything. Assuming NRPC doesn’t abandon the line between Michigan City and Porter (or railbanks it intact), it could switch back over to that line and then purchase the CSX Porter Sub (ex-Michigan Central.) The only shared trackage would be South Shore between South Bend and Michigan City, which as I understand isn’t all that busy*, and would only take on four more trains as of today. Or, Amtrak could build a third main next to either South Shore or NS. Or it could rehabilitate the ex-Pennsy (current Chicago, Ft Wayne and Eastern) and plug in a line to intersect it from Porter. Or it could build in the Indiana Turnpike or I-94 right-of-way.

Any of those improvements would benefit Amtrak and/or South Shore, and by extension the entire Chicago region.

*though the South Shore main does go right through their shops complex in Michigan City - that would be a choke point.

I doubt that Amtrak would abandon the Porter to Michigan City section. NS still uses that section to run up to Dowagiac or Decatur with a couple of local trains. At the same time, Amtrak invested millions into revamping that section. The Porter Sub is a unique idea, one I haven't heard of before but still puts Amtrak at the mercy of the NS dispatchers in ATL since it would almost certainly be a diamond and then you'd lose the station stop at HMI.

A problem that is not being given proper attention on this thread is the poor performance of the Wolverines on their own railroad.
For instance, #351, which has no opposing train meets east of Kalamazoo, has left KAL less than ten minutes late only eight times this year and has never been on time or early. It has five early arrivals into Chicago and six arrivals less than ten min. LT.
I believe the problem is ITCS issues. Yes, NS does a less than stellar job is dispatching the Chicago Line (certainly not as well as Conrail did); however, we need to consider Amtrak's self-inflicted problems as part of the overall OTP saga in MI.
Andy

Remember, there are three sections of the route that are not Amtrak controlled: the CN from PNT to DET, NS/CR from DET to DER, and CN again from CP Baron to CP Gord in BTL. CN has been known to hold up Amtrak on one side of the AML to send one of their own trains through before letting them traverse the mile and a half section which isn't just a station stop but also happens to be the AML crew change point.

I agree that something along the AML is causing delays...the ITCS drop-outs definitely don't help, but look at the running of 351 on 2/22:

https://asm.transitdocs.com/train/2020/2/21/351

It's almost perfect. Except they got to the first station stop late and just kept losing time despite ITCS running. They even bled through their schedule padding. There was one unscheduled stop outside of NBU and then they got slapped with a slow order in the vicinity of 502 on the Chicago Line. Judging from the fact that 350 was also slapped with a slow order in the same area that 351 got stopped, I believe it was likely MOW or C&S related.

I'm wondering if Amtrak is scheduling the station stops too tightly in an effort to reduce the running time but as a result, they're asking the conductors to do the impossible and it's causing delays? It takes us approximately 20 minutes to disembark passengers, clean quickly, and board a 50 seat regional jet. Even if you're not scanning tickets on the platform or cleaning the consist, asking conductors to de/board 20-30 people in three minutes is almost an impossible task unless you have all the doors open, which isn't possible on an AML train since no station has high-level platforms and the Horizon cars don't have automatic doors.

[mtuandrew]

WN: it sure would be nice to cut CN out of the Wolverine route since Amtrak has to deal with two other foreign roads as it is (CSAO and NS.) The biggest timesaver would be to cut off the Pontiac dogleg and originate at MC Station when the Fords have it reopened, but that’s a decade away at best and would cut off a lot of ridership.

Good point about NS traffic to Michigan City and points north, guess Amtrak needs to keep that line regardless!

Any future passenger use of the Porter Branch would require a lot of grade crossing remediation, consolidation, and elimination; it also plunges right through the middle of Indiana Harbor Belt’s Barr Yard besides needing to cross the NS Chicago Line. Figure on megabucks to address those with quad gates and flyovers, beyond the initial purchase price from CSX.

I mentioned that there were a few potential Chicago approaches; I specifically meant two. The first one is the current CREATE plan route: NS all the way from the East, joined at Grand Crossing by Illini-Saluki and City of New Orleans trains that come up CN, would cross over the CN and Metra Electric at 79th Street (the former Nickel Plate bridge) and take a hard left to join the NS. This route also works if you’re funneling all Amtrak traffic from the east through Kensington Interlocking off the South Shore (or the ex-MCRR, which is disused through that area.)

The second possibility is to route all traffic from the east (via Kensington) and the south up the CN diesel line, crossing under Metra Electric at McCormick Place, and onto the St. Charles Air Line. Then, trains would go back south to Cermak Avenue before backing into Union Station (or would go straight across the SCAL bridge to wye onto Amtrak rails.) It avoids NS altogether and gives Amtrak a passenger main (either its own or NICTD’s) from Porter all the way in. Amtrak could likely purchase the CN line - there is next to no freight on it since the EJE purchase, if any at all - but the question of station access is thorny.

[WesternNation]

WN: it sure would be nice to cut CN out of the Wolverine route since Amtrak has to deal with two other foreign roads as it is (CSAO and NS.) The biggest timesaver would be to cut off the Pontiac dogleg and originate at MC Station when the Fords have it reopened, but that’s a decade away at best and would cut off a lot of ridership.

Good point about NS traffic to Michigan City and points north, guess Amtrak needs to keep that line regardless!

Any future passenger use of the Porter Branch would require a lot of grade crossing remediation, consolidation, and elimination; it also plunges right through the middle of Indiana Harbor Belt’s Barr Yard besides needing to cross the NS Chicago Line. Figure on megabucks to address those with quad gates and flyovers, beyond the initial purchase price from CSX.

I mentioned that there were a few potential Chicago approaches; I specifically meant two. The first one is the current CREATE plan route: NS all the way from the East, joined at Grand Crossing by Illini-Saluki and City of New Orleans trains that come up CN, would cross over the CN and Metra Electric at 79th Street (the former Nickel Plate bridge) and take a hard left to join the NS. This route also works if you’re funneling all Amtrak traffic from the east through Kensington Interlocking off the South Shore (or the ex-MCRR, which is disused through that area.)

The second possibility is to route all traffic from the east (via Kensington) and the south up the CN diesel line, crossing under Metra Electric at McCormick Place, and onto the St. Charles Air Line. Then, trains would go back south to Cermak Avenue before backing into Union Station (or would go straight across the SCAL bridge to wye onto Amtrak rails.) It avoids NS altogether and gives Amtrak a passenger main (either its own or NICTD’s) from Porter all the way in. Amtrak could likely purchase the CN line - there is next to no freight on it since the EJE purchase, if any at all - but the question of station access is thorny.

It would be incredibly beneficial if CN was taken out of the equation. I don't see why Amtrak couldn't take over the BTL segment from CN. There are eight moves from Amtrak every day plus maybe two from NS. Even as it is now, the sheer difference in traffic amounts should preclude traffic problems. At the same time, I've always felt that working around Amtrak shouldn't be all that difficult. The schedules are published and don't change often. However, if Amtrak was just given the legal priority that they should've always had and a way to enforce it, it becomes a moot point.

I've always liked the idea of having the Illinois Service trains and the CONO reroute to the NS at Grand Crossing to avoid that dumb reverse move into CUS. Plus, that segment of the Chicago Line (GC to Lumber Street) doesn't see too many delays save for the occasional train moving into or out of the various intermodal yards in the area.

The Kensington Interlocking idea is interesting...Amtrak obviously already has trains that run through that area so the last segment would simply be a matter of qualifying the AML crews. However, the reverse move still has to happen, and looking at Google Maps I can't figure a way to route those trains directly into CUS without having clearance issues.

Another interesting aspect of the CREATE project is that they're looking at moving some Metra service over to LaSalle Street to make room for additional Amtrak services. I think that would be beneficial for both Amtrak and Metra, as Metra has been unhappy with Amtrak ever since the computer outage fiasco last year and wants to take control of CUS. Moving the SouthWest Service and others to LaSalle allows Metra to control their own destiny, if you will, while allowing Amtrak room to grow intercity services.