$25000 Ticket on the Chicago-Bloomington Run

[John_Perkowski]

Amtrak Asks Two People In Wheelchairs To Pay $25,000 For A Ride

It’s NPR, people...

[Backshophoss]

Could have used a View II bag -Dorm for that move,at least for the Wheelchair group only problem would be the
tie down of the wheelchairs per ADA regs.

[STrRedWolf]

Hold my coffee. It costs $25K to temporarily modify a car? Really?

If the Horizon fleet is like the Amfleet I, all you would need to do is unbolt a pair of seats and a table in two cars, and you're done. It takes no more than one hour and maybe two people for the entire job, and that's roughly $50 assuming that they make $25/hour (which I think is more than what a top union mechanic at MTA Maryland makes). The same for putting it back together.

To be honest, I can't see how they can charge $25K, when if you pass along the labor cost, a $32 round trip would be more like $232.

[charlesriverbranch]

So, if I understand right, the train only has room for three wheelchairs, and the $25000 charge is for modifying a car so it will take two more. Why not just have the other two folks take a later train?

[STrRedWolf]

The controversy is that they were going in as a group, and previously Amtrak just ate the cost. They changed policy in 2019 to pass along the modification cost... but that seems exhorbinant!

[John_Perkowski]

I’m waiting for the ADA lawsuit.

Meanwhile, in the court of public opinion...

[WashingtonPark]

So, if I understand right, the train only has room for three wheelchairs, and the $25000 charge is for modifying a car so it will take two more. Why not just have the other two folks take a later train?

That's exactly what Amtrak offered them and they wouldn't take it. They wanted them to take a car out of service and modify it for them so they could all go together.

[STrRedWolf]

So, if I understand right, the train only has room for three wheelchairs, and the $25000 charge is for modifying a car so it will take two more. Why not just have the other two folks take a later train?

That's exactly what Amtrak offered them and they wouldn't take it. They wanted them to take a car out of service and modify it for them so they could all go together.

According to the article, Amtrak didn't offer it at the time. Amtrak offered it after NPR started poking around.

[SouthernRailway]

I don't understand why Amtrak wouldn't (1) offer to add cars to the train to accommodate the wheelchairs (surely that would cost less than $25k) or (2) remove seats when the car is on a layover. Why would cars need to be taken out of service; don't they linger at the station or coach yard in between trips?

Whoever quoted $25K really has questionable sense.

[mtuandrew]

I’m really tired of this crap, Amtrak. Do your job as a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Federal government, including making platforms accessible through lifts or high platforms.

[Tadman]

It's just not that easy. They don't own the trackage in question, it's CN, and CN doesn't want high platforms. Not only that, Amtrak runs Superliners and Horizons on this route, so then how do the superliners passengers get on? Now we have two platforms for each station?

Look at the real costs of the conversion of one car:

1. Remove from service and find another car to cut in to that spot $338
2. Ship that car to a shop. $3.67/mile times 184 miles - $675
3. Pay 3-4 guys all day to unbolt the chairs. 8 hours, $25/hour salary, probably another 25-40/hour in bennies. $1600
4. Cover the cost of finding other guys to take their place on whatever project they were working on. There is a cost associated with delays to capital projects. If the shop is an outside contract shop, they have a penalty clause for late work. $________
5. Pay 3-4 guys all day to bolt in proper tie-downs. 8 hours, $50/hour total $1600
6. Ship it to Chicago - would be a charge if this were a PV $675
7. Couple it to the train - would be a charge if this were a PV $330
8. Run the train, uncouple the car at the end of the run, hide it somewhere until needed to return - switching and storage charges if this were a PV $500 + $330 + $600
9. When needed again, switch back onto train - would be a charge if this were a PV $330
10. Run it back to Chicago and switch out - would be a charge if this were a PV $500 + $330
11. Ship back to shops - would be a charge if this were a PV $675
12. Two more days labor, four guys, $50/hour min - $3200
13. Back to Chicago $675
14. Back onto the normal train $330

I'm somewhere at $13,000 back of napkin. THis doesn't include charges to actually use the car. Maybe $1000/day times four days means the total is now $17,000.

We're short of $25k, but I don't have access to real historical costs.

Maybe it would be better to charter a bus or van that is especially set up for this? Maybe it would be better to take a couple different trains? Maybe it would be better to charter a PV? Any one of these solutions might not just present a more cost-competitive solution, but it might be a comprehensively better overall solution. For example, the van could deliver the passengers direct to their hotel or conference, negating a need to transfer to taxi at the station. A PV could allow the entire team to begin their work retreat by holding a conference or brainstorm without other passengers. I love the PV idea, but nope, the outrage must continue to be fed to the readers, it sells ads and helps their confirmation bias.

What would be the response from Greyhound, United, Southwest, etc?

This is abominable reporting. All it does is report outrage with little attempt made to examine the "why", no attempt made to explore alternatives and absolutely no possibility that there is a better concept overall.

[Arborwayfan]

One long-term result should be to have all new coaches (and maybe all coaches getting at least a certain level of internal maintenance) have the appropriate fittings to quickly lock in tie-downs for several wheelchairs, and have enough of the seats set up in such a way that they can be quickly removed by the maintenance staff at any major terminal (eg Chicago, Boston, New York). Assuming that's technically feasible, it would probably be relatively cheap to do when the cars were being built or in the shop anyway. The main problem would then be that those seats would be missing until the car got back to the same terminal.

I'm trying to imagine the corridor and LD versions of the fold-up seats on buses and subway cars, and I just can't see how it could be done.

How many spaces per car is enough? That needs to be worked out with the disability community and the relevant federal agency? Surely Amtrak isn't required to have space for as many people in wheelchairs as show up, but it seems like it should be more than one wheelchair per car

[STrRedWolf]

If I remember, MTA Maryland MARC III's and IV's can take 4 per car (2 per end) except the cab car. MARC III's go down to two (cab end can't be used) and the IV's down to three when the engineer is in the cab end working the train.

However, this depends on the configuration of those Horizon cars.

In comparison, MTA Maryland Light Rail vehicles are 4 per car because of flip-up seats.

I don't understand why Amtrak wouldn't (1) offer to add cars to the train to accommodate the wheelchairs (surely that would cost less than $25k) or (2) remove seats when the car is on a layover. Why would cars need to be taken out of service; don't they linger at the station or coach yard in between trips?

Whoever quoted $25K really has questionable sense.

(snipping description of a worst-case scenario)

I'm somewhere at $13,000 back of napkin. THis doesn't include charges to actually use the car. Maybe $1000/day times four days means the total is now $17,000.

We're short of $25k, but I don't have access to real historical costs.

Eight hours? Four men? For something as simple as unbolting and hauling out a pair of seats and a table on two cars?

Now you know why I came up with $232. This is a layover job for two people and an hour of work at $25/hour/person and a charged battery-powered drill gun. You put the seats back on at the other end, then take 'em out when they board the train after their setup (assuming there's a few runs between the round trips).

[John_Perkowski]

Tad,

The airlines would find a way. They have public affairs shops which understand the cost of an article going above the fold in the WaPo. (Aside, clearly Boeing doesn’t)

BTW, Amtrak had another gaffe today! Ms Ifill, cousin of the late Gwen Ifill and head of litigation for the ACLU, gets asked to move her seat on an Acela.

Clearly, Amtrak needs a lesson in what happens when something makes the news cycle.

[mtuandrew]

I wonder whether Amfleets are able to securely hold wheelchairs to the existing seat rails, or if the $25k includes structural reinforcements and specialized mounting systems. Definitely not as simple as unbolting a few seats, but then Amtrak should have been planning for something like this and have more hard secure points per car.

Note for future cars, guys.