Dream models that you hope will be manufactured

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Otto Vondrak
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Re: Dream models that you hope will be manufactured

Post by Otto Vondrak » Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:42 pm

delvyrails wrote:We need a generic HO rail-motor car/gas-electric car. Both Walthers and Spectrum missed the bet by coming out with a single-end Electro Motive vehicle with cab and working coupler at only one end. They require a loop, wye, or turntable at each end of any run. Maybe that's why they haven't sold well.

Decades ago, Suydam produced a double-ended HO brass Brill Model 350 which was perfect for the job. Little detail and a mediocre power drive is why they're rarities today.

A plastic model of the 350 or one of the smaller double-end Brill motor cars would be perfect. Unlike the RDC, it's perfectly prototypical to haul any combination of passenger, freight, or express cars behind a rail motor car.
Here I totally agree with you. So annoyed that the only mass-produced gas-electric models were of an obscure EMC model versus the more common Brill model. I really think there'd be a market for a Brill 350... For example, they were used on shortlines like the Columbus & Greenville...
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...and mainlines and branchlines of the New York Central.
Image

-otto-
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green_elite_cab
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Re: Dream models that you hope will be manufactured

Post by green_elite_cab » Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:43 pm

Otto Vondrak wrote:
green_elite_cab wrote:I'm kinda surprised there isn't a resin GP40PH-2 of some kind out there.
Would you settle for a GP40FH? We ran an article in the October 2011 Railroad Model Craftsman on how to model an NJT GP40FH using a resin shell from IHP and mating it to an Atlas GP40 chassis.

http://carstensbookstore.com/october20112.html

-otto-
Not that I wouldn't love a few of those (a fresh shell at least, mine is crazy), but it doesn't hit the mark. The GP40FH-2 is essentially Unique to NJ transit, and then where ever they were leased to in Canada.

The GP40PH-2 could fill in multiple road names in the east, and could be modified slightly depending on the specific prototype. These locomotives span the last 20 years or so in their current form,

Meanwhile, other types like the F59PHI and MP36 are being produced, why not a GP40PH-2 Type?
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CNJ999
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Re: Dream models that you hope will be manufactured

Post by CNJ999 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:27 am

Otto Vondrak wrote:
delvyrails wrote:We need a generic HO rail-motor car/gas-electric car. Both Walthers and Spectrum missed the bet by coming out with a single-end Electro Motive vehicle with cab and working coupler at only one end. They require a loop, wye, or turntable at each end of any run. Maybe that's why they haven't sold well.

Decades ago, Suydam produced a double-ended HO brass Brill Model 350 which was perfect for the job. Little detail and a mediocre power drive is why they're rarities today.

A plastic model of the 350 or one of the smaller double-end Brill motor cars would be perfect. Unlike the RDC, it's perfectly prototypical to haul any combination of passenger, freight, or express cars behind a rail motor car.
Here I totally agree with you. So annoyed that the only mass-produced gas-electric models were of an obscure EMC model versus the more common Brill model. I really think there'd be a market for a Brill 350... For example, they were used on shortlines like the Columbus & Greenville...
Image

...and mainlines and branchlines of the New York Central.
Image

-otto-
I think that the great stumbling block to the production of a new double-ended doodlebug is two-fold. Firstly, I don't believe that the Walthers and Spectrum examples ever sold all that well and that the recent run of the latter model (with a cheap trailer car added) jumped enormously and unrealistically in price thereby putting a further crimp in demand. Such circumstances usually signals the death knell for future production of any similar models these days.

Secondly, I've witnessed a major shift in the nature and concept of hobbyists' layouts in the past twenty years or so from truly individual, older (1930's-40's) small and shortline, free-lance railroading where the use of a doodlebug would be totally appropriate, to representations of more modern mainline prototypical situations that call for big modern trains and passenger consists (a trend spurred by the combination of the decline in newer hobbyists' actual modelling capabilities to kitbash their own unique models, together with the shift by the manufacturers from affordable and bashable models to pricey, detailed, RR specific, RTR/buy-and-play models in HO).

With those two situations in play, I believe that the market for a new and undoubtedly expensive bi-directional doodlebug would be limited and certainly not the overnight sell-out sort of model the manufacturers are aiming for with each new model issued today.

P.S. I do own both a Walther and a Spectrum doodlebug, along with a kitbashed gas-electric based on a modified, powered, MDC passenger combine and even an ancient Walthers Shuttle Jack (who recalls those?)!

CNJ999

mlrr
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Re: Dream models that you hope will be manufactured

Post by mlrr » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:13 am

I've been following the thread and would like to share my thoughts about "wishers/waters/dreamers". I also want to briefly address the AEM7 issue.

First the AEM7
Expect the popularity of the locomotive to grow as a new generation of model railroaders makes up the market. How many versions of the GG-1 do we have from how many manufacturers? I won't go into the extensive detail about this projection because I have already done so in another thread. All I have to say is that it is not impossible for Atlas to produce another run, it's more of a matter of when. As the hobby shifts to a younger/newer generation who also look to live out their childhood desires or dreams that they couldn't afford before (much like the current generation who dominates the industry now does), these locomotives will be come a more prominent (although not as prominent as diesels and other roads) than they were when Atlas initially released the AEM7.

Additionally, they are NOT as easy to find as some may make them out to be. The ones that sell for 30-50 bucks are mostly commuter roadnames and more than likely un-numbered. The most I've paid for an AEM7 with commuter markings is 50 bucks. The numbered Amtrak units rarely sell for less than their original MSRP.

I will say that it is less likely to see a variant of that model (i.e. AEM7AC or added openings for ditch lights) and that's ok. The fact that a base model exists that is accurate in its dimensions is a very fair compromise for any future re-release of the AEM7.

Regarding "wishers/wanters/dreamers"
I've been a wisher/wanter/dreamer for years and is well documented on the forum in its current incarnation as of 2004. In some cases I still am.

Everyone is not on the same playing field. Either they don't have the experience or resources (tools, space, financial, etc.). That's fine. I started there myself and I certainly appreciate knowing where I came from and refuse to forget that especially when I come across new, enthusiastic modelers who are where I once was. Furthermore, the last thing I would do is condescendingly burst their bubble. I will however encourage embracing the idea of kitbashing (without the sarcasm of course :)).

Additionally, I would encourage those who do make attempts at kitbashing and share their results, no matter how "crude" the project may seem. I'll NEVER stick my nose up at someone else's work. They've already earned my respect by taking it upon themselves to be creative. Hey, it's only fair. Besides, how else can one save a "dying hobby"? It certainly doesn't save it by walking over newcomers (but that's a completely different topic).

So to the "wishers/wanters/dreamers" keep doing just that. Patience is a virtue. I won't lie and say they'll all become reality but I would encourage kitbashing as others have already. That's what I resorted to and I feel I've gotten better at it over the years. I've shared some of my projects on the forum here and have gotten kind words from fellow members either in the thread or offline as well as constructive criticism for which I truly appreciate. It's has motivated me to up my game. I know not having the resources is a limiting factor and I still deal with that at times when facing other projects.

My advice when kitbashing is to really think about the process before you start chopping, slicing, painting, etc. I started my P32AC-DM project back in 2004 but it wasn't until 2009 when I really thought about the process that I re-visited the project (virtually starting from scratch), but it moved quickly. It also cost WAY less than a brass locomotive (I can probably easily make two for the price of one brass loco, if not less although the caveat is that the roof panels weren't modifed on the Athearn model, only around the area where the fan is located). Now I have this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSGyShaop-w

Here's a picture of the roof:

Image

So don't let criticism be one of the things that discourages you from kitbashing. Anyone willing to offer anything BUT constructive criticism should be willing AND ABLE to do the (better) work for you, for free. Make them put their money where their mouth is (in this case I guess that would be literal since they'd be doing it for free :)).

Now back to the topic of the thread

My top wish right now is the MP36's from True Line Trains. They've been announced since 2008 and were expected Fall 2009. TLT has no release date and we're going on year 4. Fortunately a substantial amount of work has been done on these models so this project is farther along than some other wishlist items. I just hope to see mine within the next year!

I also hope that a manufacturer develops the new electric locomotive that Amtrak has ordered from Siemens. Hopefully 2 to 3 years after it enters service. Bachmann did that with the HHP-8 and I'm extremely grateful for that.

I also hope to see a re-tooled Amfleet I from Walthers. When I noticed that Walthers retired the existing models, I got my hopes up for them to re-tool and release the Amfleet I in the latest Amtrak livery. That hope was thwarted when Amtrak stepped in and comissioned walthers to produce the latest livery on the existing tooling. Now that that has been introduced, lord knows when/if Walthers will actually do what I had speculated. Since the models are only available through Amtrak, perhaps this doesn't effect anything at all. My hypothesis was developed based on my observations of how they handled the superliners. Walthers upgraded the tooling and finish of the superliners before releasing them with the latest livery. I thought they were thinking of doing the same with the Amfleets albeit more extensive tooling modifications.

Another Walthers hopefull are Amtrak California and Surfliner Cars. I think they released the respective superliners (true to prototype) to not only sell more units but gauge market interest in these cars. I think these cars sold fairly well (I even bought a couple myself to help the long-term cause) and if so, I think we can expect to see the real California and surfliner cars within the next 5-10 years but they likely won't be cheap. Perhaps they'll sell four-car sets given the different configurations. After all, if they invest in tooling for the different car-types, they'd better be sure to sell each type right?

I've given up on wishing/wanting/hoping for mass-produced EMUs. I disagree with the generalization of the WMATA and BART Metro cars. The tooling of those cars had serious issues. The DC METRO cars were too round with respect to their angular sides. Also, if one was to find them on eBay, one would know that they sell WELL above MSRP and are hard to find. I would agree with Walthers decision not to re-run them as they are. I don't expect them to re-tool the model and re-release them either. I think they would have had slightly better success doing a Metro-North M1 which could have also been painted in LIRR colors. Who knows; Metro-North might have even commissioned them to run more for their 25th anniversary like they commissioned Lionel. They had already had a similar arrangement with Walthers with regard to their commet/AMD-103 train set back in ?2004?. Selling them as married pairs also guaranties double the per-unit sale as pairs are a MUST for thsese models. I dont recall if Walthers sold the BART or WMATA cars as pairs or singles.

I hope Atlas will to a GP-15 in phase V Amtrak colors although I'm not aware of any other road that has a similar engine. If there isn't, it'd be nice to get some direction on a what existing models might be out there in which to use as a base for kitbashing.

Other than that, that's all I can think about...

Dieter
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Re: Dream models that you hope will be manufactured

Post by Dieter » Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:00 pm

A shallow front model of Grand Central in New York.

Canadian Kits;
B/A Gas Station (1960's)
Sobey's super market
Modern CN Station

The "O" Gauge Plasticville Turnpike Interchange Toll Booth in "HO" which was promised by Bachmann several years ago, but which never materialized.

For Walther's to issue the Skytop Observation Car in Canadian National rather than yet ANOTHER variant of the Milwaukee Road.
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mlrr
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Re: Dream models that you hope will be manufactured

Post by mlrr » Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:57 pm

Dieter wrote:A shallow front model of Grand Central in New York.
That's actually not a bad idea. Perhaps even being sold on a modular basis allowing one to gradually expand to a full terminal (if desired and possible)

The initial idea doesn't seem impossible though. I know plenty of modelers would incorporate it despite it's specific nature. Even the Walthers Union Station kit was based on a prototype but many modelers still use it to represent a grand terminal.

Desertdweller
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Re: Dream models that you hope will be manufactured

Post by Desertdweller » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:55 pm

Kyle,

Yes. The Walthers Union Station is a model of the CB&Q station in Omaha. On my railroad, it is disguised as Denver Union Station.

Les
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CNJ999
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Re: Dream models that you hope will be manufactured

Post by CNJ999 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 8:22 am

Dieter wrote:
A shallow front model of Grand Central in New York.
As with the CNJ's terminal in Jersery City mentioned earlier in this thread, NYC's Grand Central Terminal even as a low relief model is simply too large and much too readily identifiable for it to appeal to the vaste majority of hobbyists. While Walthers' Union Station undoubtedly has done fairly well in the marketplace in spite of its size by virtue of the fact that it is rather generic in appareance, I don't not believe that their huge and rather unique appearing Milwaukee (?) station has done any where near as well. Likewise, each eats up too much space (about 24" minimum) to fit most modest-sized layouts, even though these structures may have been somewhat selectively compressed.

Quite a number of hobbyists do enjoy creating some sort of urban scene on their layouts, but these usually are meant to represent more modest cities, not a great metropolis that the big Walthers' stations more-or-less represent, thus limiting their appeal. At the other end of the spectrum there are a great many small hometown-type stations available. What I think is really needed are some intermediate-sized, yet still somewhat imposing, station buildings representing the sorts of structures found in cities of say more like 100,000-250,000 population. I personally filled just such a need by kitbashing one of Walthers' Bailey Savings and Loan building kits to fit an available small spot on my layout. It has the feel of the sort of older, semi-elaborate, but compact station one often finds downtown in moderate-sized cities in the East. In my case, I situated it above the railroad's trackage and platforms, further reducing the necessary footprint required.

Image

Image
(as seen from below in this still-under-construction photo)

CNJ999

Desertdweller
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Re: Dream models that you hope will be manufactured

Post by Desertdweller » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:50 pm

CNJ,

I really like your station! When I first saw a picture of the S&L building, I was struck by its appearance as potential for a station. Especially nice was the shot from track level.

The use of the station building above the tracks is a great space-saving idea. The actual CB&Q Omaha is arranged at street level with the tracks below (alongside) it.

I once built a large union station for an N-trak railroad, using a 4' and a 6' module end to end. I scratchbuilt a 1/3 N-scale model of the C&NW Chicago headhouse (an actual N-scale model would have been the size of a window air conditioner). It still turned out about the size of a toaster oven.

I made a plywood platform supported by rows of dowels (between the tracks) to support it. Behind the headhouse was a long concourse building spanning the tracks, with covered walkways leading down to the loading platforms.

That S&L building kit would also make a great basis for a post office.

Les

mlrr
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Re: Dream models that you hope will be manufactured

Post by mlrr » Tue Dec 06, 2011 1:22 pm

CNJ999,

Remember, we're not talking about the entire station but just the front. That idea is what caught my attention. I forget the name of the manufacturer of these kits but my LHS has them where they're meant to go up against backdrops.

This is where modelers can/should get creative. I'm not sure what the exact width of the building is otherwise I'd do a scale conversion to get a sense of the width needed for a model railroad.

You have a point about a station being readily identifiable and less attractive; however, I suspect that won't stop modelers especially those who freelance (based on space availability of course). The catch is that these modelers would have to commit (somehow) to a scene with a terminal or they can simply have the front model in the back behind other buildings.

Who knows, perhaps the arbitrary manufacturer can tool the kit in such away that the frontage model is, in itself, modular allowing one to make adjustments based on space limitations. Just a thought...

Nice station by the way!

CNJ999
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Re: Dream models that you hope will be manufactured

Post by CNJ999 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 2:04 pm

Kyle, the 42nd Street face of Grand Central Terminal, that which is most familiar to hobbyists, railfans and the public and which is a single uninterrupted mass, is just short of 500' wide. This scales out to more than five and one-half actual feet in width in HO! Even with selective compression taken to an extreme, yet without totally loosing the overall appearance of this massive building, it would surely still leave such a model well over three feet long, even if it were just an inch or so deep.

Being one of the greatest railway stations on the planet, even as a background HO flat it would be too overwhelming and appear totally out of context on anything short of a truly huge layout and necessarily would need to be backed by a vast and towering city scene of some sort to be in context. I'd venture that the investment required in creating the commercial tooling for such a highly detailed, complex and large model would undoubtedly place it beyond the affordability of 99.9% of hobbyists today, even as a flat.

CNJ999

dogsboss
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Re: Dream models that you hope will be manufactured

Post by dogsboss » Wed Dec 07, 2011 12:58 pm

New Haven Electrics, All or any EP-, EF,- Or EY,- Models except the GE Products, in plastic or resin; i.e. reasonably priced. Esp EP-2, -3, -4, EF-1, -3. would be very nice!
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Earle Baldwin
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Re: Dream models that you hope will be manufactured

Post by Earle Baldwin » Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:58 pm


jaystreetcrr
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Re: Dream models that you hope will be manufactured

Post by jaystreetcrr » Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:21 pm

Hey Desertdweller and CNJ999...nice work with big stations! It's something most of us can't justify or squeeze into our layouts. Good use of selective compression and kitbashing.
I lived in Denver for a while and many times looked across the South Platte at the station. You really nailed it!
I was just in Manhattan checking out the Murray Hill tunnel in Park Ave. south of Grand Central. It was built for the New York and Harlem when trains still went further south and was later used as a trolley tunnel. I'm fantasizing about doing a trolley tunnel module so I'll take one of those Grand Central models in N scale, please.
Seriously, it's hard to imagine anyone making a scale model of this, and in "real life" there's no train tracks in sight of the south-facing facade unless you're doing early 20th century century traction modeling...but...I wonder if there would be a market for paper backdrop models of this and other iconic railroad facades, or software that could size, compress, print, etc. such paper backdrop models. Grand Central, old Penn Station, the CNJ and Lackawanna ferry terminals...all the great stations of the world!

Desertdweller
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Re: Dream models that you hope will be manufactured

Post by Desertdweller » Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:41 pm

Jay,

Thanks! I designed the Union Station portion of the railroad from the perspective of someone standing in the South Platte River. The combined main lines follow the edge of the "river" (the layout front edge). Behind that are the platform tracks for the abandoned Denver and Salt Lake station, then the platform tracks for DUS proper.

Behind the station are buildings and flats and pictures representing "Lo-Do" (Lower Down Town in Denverese). I also modeled Cherry Creek before it became a concrete-sided storm channel.

I wanted a model railroad that would showcase most of my favorite railroads. I also wanted to model heavy passenger operations without having to model the NEC or Chicago. Next choice was Kansas City, but I can drive to Denver and back in a day, and have memories of taking trains in and out of Denver.

Les

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