Lehigh Valley mail trains

[Richard1]

In 1961 the Lehigh Valley discontinued what remained of its passenger service. However, I have been told by several retired LV employees of the existence of mail trains #17 and #18 that operated for a time after regular passenger service was removed. Does anyone know anything about this?

[CAR_FLOATER]

Trains 17 and 18 were long gone by then, discontinued in 1937, if I recall correctly.

CF

[TB Diamond]

Lehigh Valley Railroad Time Table No. 10 dated April 28, 1940 shows Train No. 18 Buffalo, NY - Jersey City, NJ, daily except Sunday with the notation ".................will not carry passengers". Train 17 is shown Jersey City, NJ - Buffalo, NY, daily except Monday and shows stops to pick up and discharge passengers.

[scottychaos]

If you take train numbers 17 and 18 out of the equation, a questions still remains:
did the LV run some mail trains for awhile after the official end of all passenger service in 1961?

Scot

[CAR_FLOATER]

Well unless all the books out there have missed this little factoid (and by that, I mean all the "authoritative" books on the subject of the RR, like Archer, Bednar, Greenberg, Yungkurth, et al), this all sounds like some kind of mis-informed urban legend to me.

CF

[TB Diamond]

After Trains 9, 10, 4 & 11 were taken off in May, 1959 a mail train operated on the schedule of 4 & 11 for a short time in order to complete a U.S. Mail contract.This information via Record of Train Movement book from the Spencer, NY depot and from a retired Lehigh Valley Railroad locomotive engineer.

Any person wanting further details can PM me.

PJT

[scottychaos]

From the collection of Richard Palmer..thanks Richard!

Excerpts from Spencer, N.Y. Record of Train Movements for 1959.
Kept by A. Warne, Lehigh Valley Station Agent .

Eastbound

Date - Train No. - Time - Locomotive No's. - Notes.

May 11 - Train 10 "The Black Diamond" - 10:38 a.m. - 608-606 - Last run.
May 15 - Train 4 "The Major" - 11:26 p.m. - Pass. extra last run
May 26 - Train 8 "The Maple Leaf" - 1:20 a.m. -602-608 - First trip via Ithaca branch

Westbound:

May 11 - Train 11 "The Star" - 7:36 a.m. - 611-607 - Last run.
May 11 - Train 9 "The Black Diamond" - 3:08 p.m. - 613-601 - Last run, 4 cars,

M. Fisher took movies:

May 12 - Train 11 "The Star" - 6:53 a.m. - 614-608 - Pass. extra, 9 cars
May 16 - Train 11 "The Star" - 7:57 a.m. - 603-602 - Last mail train, 6 cars.
May 26 - Train 7 "The Maple Leaf" - 2:55 a.m. - 606-601 - First trip via Ithaca branch

Notes

Train 4 "The Major"
Train 7 "The Maple Leaf"
Train 8 "The Maple Leaf"
Train 9 "The Black Diamond"
Train 10 "The Black Diamond"
Train 11 "The Star"

(All trains powered by Alco "PA" locomotives. Trains 4 and 11 continued operating as mail trains, no passengers, until May 16, 1959)

[VTM]

All I can offer is that my family moved to Sibleyville (Honeoye Falls) in early 1963.

At some time me and my dad drove to Rush. He went into Bocks' grocery store and I of course stayed in the car, watching the tracks. Suddenly the crossing signals activated and a horn announced the rapid approach of a westbound train. In a flash... "long nosed" engines flew by along with an assorted mix of non freight equipment (read: typical head end baggage, express cars and maybe an RPO or rider coach). As quick as it arrived, it was gone.

My "Diesel Spotters" guide arrived a few years later and I was a bit young to know what a PA specifically was but was definitely knowledgeable enough to know this was not a freight train.

I often times wondered exactly what I witnessed and along with the PA's I never saw a consist like this again on the LV.

Another sepia toned memory.

VTM

[TB Diamond]

VTM:

Thank you for sharing that memory.

Many of us have little vignettes like that tucked away and it always feels great to pass them on to others.

[Richard1]

I wish to add this as further proof the "Star" and "Major" continued to transport mail May 12-15, 1959. Just because authors of previous Lehigh Valley books did not mention this, it doesn't mean it did not occur. Archer, Bednar, Yunkurth and others barely scratched the surface of this railroad's history.
Richard Palmer

"The west-bound Star bowed out as a passenger carrier this morning - one hour late. It was due here at 9:41 but was tardy. The Star will continue as a mail train until Friday. It will have no passengers." - Rochester Times Union, Monday, May 11, 1959

"The Lehigh is running so-called 'passenger extras' the rest of this week between New York and Buffalo on the schedules of the Star and the Major (Nos. 11 and 4), but carrying no passengers, only mail and express. It is expected that they will come off on Friday. - The Evening Times
Sayre, Pa., Tues., May 12, 1959

Richard Palmer

[Franklin Gowen]

Richard, thanks for that informative (and interesting!) post. I'm likewise pleased that you began this thread.

Getting a handle upon history is often like trying to get a defiant mustang back into the corral. Even with the tremendous efforts made so far to document, compile and then analyze the history of the various anthracite railroads that fascinate us, there's far more to know -- and most of that, sadly, will likely never be known. I'm happy when someone manages to rescue another handful of insightful data as was shown in this thread. Doubly happy, when it adds to our understanding by modifying or superseding something that's already known previously.

Carry on, folks!

[TB Diamond]

Actually, Archer does mention that Trains 4 and 11 carried mail and express but not passengers until May 15 (page 275, A History of the Lehigh Valley Railroad "The Route of the Black Diamond", Howell-North, 1977).

Quoted from the book mentioned above:

"Trains 4 and 11 carried mail and express sans passengers until May 15, when their schedules were finally aborted".

[Franklin Gowen]

TB Diamond, thanks for the addendum -- interesting to know that Archer did cover that, after all.