LV power to D&H 1976

[Cactus Jack]

Does anyone know the plan, process or procedure for the conveyance of the LV locomotives that went to the D&H ?

For instance LV 316 was on the last eastbound Apollo leaving Buffalo. Where / How did this power get to the D&H for acceptance delivery ?

What about all the rest of them ? Where D&H terminals inundated with power for a few days receiving them ?

Did CR have to deadhead or run power light to D&H facilities ?

How long did it take to get all the power delivered ?

Just wondering from a logistical standpoint and what planning info to do this might be out there.

[TB Diamond]

Am sure that somebody knows the facts for sure. About all that I can state is that the D&H received the former LVRR locos (404-415, 310-313, 314-325) account the trackage rights gained as part and parcel to the ConRail takeover. As a blind guess I offer that the power concerned was turned over by CR to the D&H at the various common terminals gained through the trackage rights. At least four of these would have been Buffalo, Oak Island/Newark, Binghamton and possibly the Scranton/Wilkes Barre area . Doubt that the turnovers were accomplished within a few days but rather probably over a week or so. Some were quite quick, however as I recall seeing photos of ex-LV units with just a length of tape across the "Lehigh Valley" on the hood sides but a day or so after 01 April 1976.

I photographed the first JN-5 (former LV train NE-1)that operated Sayre-Corning-Geneva-Lyons-Buffalo/NF on the morning of 01 April, 1976. This train had three LVRR GP38-2 locos. Most certainly these were turned over to the D&H in the Buffalo area that very day or the next at the latest, but I have no facts to back up that speculation.

Anyway, all conjecture on my part and I wish to make this clear. Superintendant of motive power, mechanical department, dispatcher and yardmaster records would fill in the blanks as would personal recall of the employes involved at the various terminals.

Good luck hunting.

[lvrr325]

That's a bizzare routing compared to just going ex-EL all the way to Buffalo. I wonder what the rationale behind that was? Crew availabiliy?

[scottychaos]

Am sure that somebody knows the facts for sure. About all that I can state is that the D&H received the former LVRR locos (404-415, 310-313, 314-325)

Minor correction..

Only the Alco C420's (404-415)
and the GP38-2's (314-325) went to the D&H.

the four GP38AC's (310-313) went to Conrail..

Could Waverly have been a hand-off point as well?
right next to Sayre yard, and on the new D&H route between Binghamton-Buffalo..
seems like it would have beena logical place to transfer locos,
D&H trains could have picked up strings of locos on the way through between Buffalo to Binghamton.

Considering Sayre was most likely the place the units were prepared for transfer to the D&H..
and considering Binghamton was most likely the place where the D&H would have first gathered them together to integrate them into their new roster,
it makes sense they would go Sayre-Waverly-Binghamton for the official transfer..

but thats just a guess..

Scot

[Mike Stellpflug]

That's a bizzare routing compared to just going ex-EL all the way to Buffalo. I wonder what the rationale behind that was? Crew availabiliy?

CR ran trains that went from Buffalo to Sayre via the EL and trains that ran Niagara Falls to Sayre via the Falls Road to Rochester, then down the Corning Secondary at Lyons. The 316 on the last Apollo 2 probably was turned over at Oak Island, since the D&H continued to run these trains, just on a different routing.

[TB Diamond]

Scott:

Thanks for the correction on the 310-313. Brain lock on my part and my bad.

AP-2 with LVRR 316-314-319 departed Tifft Jct. at 16:30 on 31 March 1976 and cleared State Line at 22:35 31 March, so was good to go on to Oak Island as it would have been running on property that was conveyed to ConRail at 00:01 on 01 April.

[Cactus Jack]

Interesting info TBDiamond. What other info do you have regarding the last day of the LV ?

How were LV employees integrated into the CR rosters ? (T&E, B&B, MOW, Clerks, mechanical, signal etc.) Were alot of folks left with no jobs or was there retirement attrition ?

Seems the LV guys in NY State really lost alot compared to EL and PC.

[lehighboy]

I was working a tie gang in Wysox,PA. on the LV main on 4/1.

We got told that day we where moving ourselves and all equipment to the Geneva N.Y. and work down the to Corning on the Secoundary line.

We completed by working down to Corning and up the Erie main to Hornell for that year.

We where classified to bid out of the Philadelphia Division for everything from Stateline PA or LV /Erie south. Except for the LV Ithaca line.

M&W and B&B dept. included. We where also allowed the rights to bid out of the Syarcuse Division that included all Erie / PC.

But once established rights where made in what ever division you choose that where your rights stayed.

There wasn't much disruption in saying on to work unless you where a section hand.Then usually they bid out to the traveling gangs.

[Matt Langworthy]

Ken Kraemer noted in his book The Lehigh Valley Railroad that the Alcos were conspicuously absent from the Buffalo area on 3/31/1976. That said, the GP38-2s were photgraphed in abundance in the Buffalo area during LV's final hours, so I think it's safe to assume they were either on or near the former EL on the morning of 4/1/1976. Mike Bednar's Lehigh Valley Railroad: The Wyoming and Buffalo Divisions shows C420 #412 pulling the remaining freight cars out of Manchester on 3/30/1976, with the destination being Sayre. I don't know for certain, but it would seem logical for the C420s to bre gathered in Sayre, Pittston ir a similar place where the y could have been easily handed over to the D&H. Just my $.02 for the occcasion!

[Matt Langworthy]

That's a bizzare routing compared to just going ex-EL all the way to Buffalo. I wonder what the rationale behind that was?

EL's fate wasn't decided until February of 1976, when the talks between Chessie and the EL unions broke down for good. I figure the USRA originally planned for symbol freights like JB-3 to use the Corning Branch/Secondary to mimimize the use of EL, with the assumption EL was going to remain outside Conrail.

[TB Diamond]

CJ:

Will have to go through my slides and negatives, notes and some official LVRR papers for power line ups that final day. Recall has it that the final eastbound, COJ-32, had three GP38-2 units that came out of Suspension Bridge as a cab hop and picked up at P&L Jct. The final westbound, ME-1, had three GE U23B units and was recrewed before arrival at Buffalo, seems like at Rush. The final TTN-1 had a Alco C420.

One of my uncles worked in Sayre at the store house. He elected to quit ConRail and work for the Lehigh Valley Railroad Estate preparing various stores and supplies for shipment as they were sold by the estate. After that job was completed he took his pension. Another uncle worked in the locomotive shop. He was offered a job in Altoona but declined and took his pension. A cousin was a LVRR conductor and wound up working CGAL/ALCG out of Corning until he retired. All three men have now passed on.

[TB Diamond]

Lehigh Valley Railroad trains and power type that operated during the daylight hours of 31 March 1976 on the west end in chronological order:

JB-3 U23B 507 + 2

NE-1 GP38-2 323 + 2

AP-1 GP38-2 319 + 2*

BPL-6/PLB-5 RS3 216

LV-2 U23B 506 + 2

LV-4 U23B 505 + 2

AP-2 GP38-2 316 + 2**

* AP-1 ran around NE-1 at P&L Jct.

** AP-1 swapped power with AP-2 at Tifft Jct.

The last TTN-1/NTT-2 (Crosstown Pickup) which operated on 30 March 1976 had C420 No. 406. Oddly, the 406 lead train COJ-32 to Sayre on 29 March followed by two C420 and four GP9/18 units.

The first ConRail JN-5 (former LVRR NE-1) had GP38-2 324 + 2 on the morning of 01 April 1976.

Some Lehigh Valley facilities remained open after ConRail:

The Buffalo Div. dispatcher office located at Niagara Jct. remained active until 03 January, 1977.

Niagara Jct. tower remained open but the hours were cut back to 09:00 - 18:00 M-F on 03 January 1977. At some point thereafter the tower was open only when a move was to be made through Niagara Jct. The tower was probably abandoned when the signal system on the former LVRR Niagara and L&LE branch lines went o/s effective 05 August 1979.

[Cactus Jack]

what now exists at the site of Niagara Junction today?

[Matt Langworthy]

what now exists at the site of Niagara Junction today?

Power lines, IIRC.

[TB Diamond]

Was last at Niagara Jct. in the fall of 2007. The cuts and general layout remained though the entire area is slowly returning to nature. Lot of standing water where the tracks were account the drainage system was long ago plugged up. Both the ex-NYC and Walden Ave. bridges have been replaced by fill. One concrete tell-tale pole was still extant and both the ex-DL&W and Erie bridges remained intact. The big LP tank just east of where the tower was located remained.

The tower and the remnant of the Depew station were demolished, I believe, in the summer of 1980. The tracks were still extant in June, 1983 but were gone by October, 1987.

BTW: 31 March 1976 was not the end for LVRR units running through Niagara Jct. On 25 October 1976 ex-LVRR Alco RS3 No. 215 pulled the Williamsville local through the junction on the way to Williamsville and returned later that day.