The two LV 95041's

[Otto Vondrak]

BR&P mentions the LV caboose on the Catskill Mountain Railroad. For whatever reason, the caboose now wears a coat of red and no markings at all. It has been used for the last 10 or so years as a gift shop, and used to sit on the end of active track in Mount Pleasant. Now with the line extending south to Cold Brook and beyond, the LV hack now rests on a separate piece of panel track adjascent to the station.

-otto-

[PassRailSavesFuel]

[quote="BR&P"]I don't get the point of your post. If the rule says over 50 years, and the caboose is 65 years old, obviously it's restricted! As for putting it on a flat car, that would be an option, but the discussion had been whether or not it would/could be moved on its own wheels.

"It's young managers doing stupid trains" ?? I have NO idea what that's all about![/quote]

Oh, sorry if I was misunderstood. 65 years? Because of poor turn around time and increased business. A freight car shortage has developed. I thought the railroads got permission to run freight cars now 65 years not 50.

By the way the shortlines do a good job. But they depend on the big supersystems. Which are now all downgraded and dumbsized. Most railroads are out of business or ripped up. Their answer is to raise rates to control demand for service.
They have hired alot of good solders that mean well and take orders well. But don't know what their doing.

Giving every customer no matter how small. service is their job.
No matter what they think. I looked up Pennsburg, it's on the Blue Mountain and Reading right? I think this is one of the better outfits. So you'd be off to a good start.

[lvrr325]

Revenue freight cars, the rule always was 40 years. Perhaps that's been extended. But a caboose isn't a loaded freight car, and while it's a little more work - IE waivers etc. - it can still go anywhere by rail so long as the I's are dotted and the T's are crossed. You only run into trouble when they have friction bearings, as frictions have been obsolete for so long most modern railroad inspectors etc. don't even know what they're looking for to make sure one is okay for service. You also have to plan that the move that takes a truck trailer 36 hours or so dock to dock may take 36 days for your oddball equipment move.


Cars in captive service become a whole different animal; close-up inspection of Conrail camp cars and a rail train showed build dates anywhere from 1910-1930 on most of the cars. Ballast cars converted from 2-bay hoppers often have kit-converted trucks - roller bearings added to friction bearing frames.


Moving something on a flatcar is also doable, but not only do you need to hire the flatcar, you incur an expense in most cases needing some type of overhead lifting crane to load the equipment going onto the flatcar. I suppose if you had a couple of sections of I-beam it would be possible to block up a car off it's trucks high enough to roll a flat under it, but that's really only practical if the steel is around on-site.


I've reviewed all these things for real life situations and do have some idea what I'm talking about, unlike some of the folks that post on here, kind of getting tired of explaining that. FRA waivers, one-time shop moves, moves with run-through hoses and additional equipment used for braking power, what needs to be functional to move a car on it's own wheels, etc etc etc. When I don't know, I ask a friend about it who does FRA inspections, one of the few guys in this state even qualified to do full airbrake inspections -

[BR&P]

You're dealing with 3 areas here.

First - the AAR (Association of American Railroads). This is an industry group who sets forth guidelines for freight cars and interchange rules. While most railroads follow their rules, they are free to not follow them on a limited basis if it is not in conflict with government regs.

Second - Government regulations, set forth in the Code of Federal Regulations, and enforced by the Federal Railroad Administration. These are rule, supported by law. In some cases it is possible to request a waiver. This generates a lot of paperwork, takes a lot of time, is a pain in the butt to go through, and may or may not be approved.

Third - the carriers themselves. Their own policy may be more rigid than the other two. For example, for many years some Class I's have refused to handle friction bearing cars even when not prohibited by the feds. They simply did not want to be bothered with the responsibility and a$$ache in dealing with it. So they would either put a very high charge on such a move, or refuse altogether.

Now there is nothing PHYSICALLY keeping a 1910 wooden boxcar with archbar trucks from going from California to Maine, to make up an example. But the AAR has outlawed archbar trucks, the FRA has prohibited them, and the carriers would all refuse anyway.

As for moving an LV caboose around, the axle bearings are only one factor. Age, underframe, brakes, couplers, all these things and more would have to be examined and any deviation from various regs would have to be dealt with. The smaller the railroads involved, the more possible it may be - freak winds are still known to blow cars around in the middle of the night But the days of a bottle of scotch to the local trainmaster are long gone from the Class I's. And it's not impossible that a Class I would suggest to the FRA folks looking into a waiver that they (the Class I) would really not be heartbroken if the waiver request was turned down.

Faced with moving an LV caboose any significant distance, in most cases a truck or flatcar would be the easier way, and maybe the ONLY way.

[Otto Vondrak]

BR&P explains it all very thoroughly, but in the end, any carrier can refuse any car movement for any reason- and the number one reason will be they wont want to chance moving an "antique" like an LV hack.

[Drawhead]

Out of curiosity and being the owner of a LV hack what is the reason for the banning of cars with the Duryea underframes in interchange? I've noticed on Scots LV caboose list web page that 95 LV hacks in the phase 1 group ending with 95041 had the cushion underframes.The later phase 2 hacks had the solid underframes.I've also read somewhere that later on the 19 or so LV hacks regulated to pool service with the letter A prefix before the number were only those with the cushion underframes.Were the later solid underframe LV hacks hard riding and rough when couplings were made?Also if someone found/bought and wanted to move one of the 45 LV hacks with the solid underframe could one then be interchanged if everything else got the green light? It's deffinately getting harder to move any older RR equipment by rail.

When i bought mine wich was built in 1942 back in 1995 it was 53 years old at the time and had friction bearing wheelsets.I had heard something at that time of the 50 year age deal for moving old rail equipment.I don't remember getting a special waiver back then to have it moved by rail but did have a qualified FRA inspector friend go with me to Renovo Pa. when i went to pick mine out.Of the 80 plus hacks for sale there at the time wich still reminds me to this day of a used caboose car lot,something in wich i will never see the likes of again in my lifetime, they all had friction bearings except 2.My first choice hack had bad journals wich were pitted as did many others that we checked as the hacks had sat there for a good 10 years or so.My friend said most were hot box accidents waiting to happen if moved by rail and we spent the whole morning checking journals to find a decent one that would make it by rail to Ohio.After finally finding one we then had to repack the journals with new pads,oil them,re-stencil the car and fix the air line connections and install new hoses.It was a whole day ordeal!This was the second week of Feb.

The actual move by Conrail from Pa. to Ohio at that time only cost $472 wich i didn't think was bad but the hack didn't arrive until 2 months later in April! I then had to have it interchanged by the W&LE only 1/2 mile wich cost $400 A few years later i then had it moved behind where i live and that was another ordeal! i began getting price quotes to have it moved by truck wich varied from $4,000 to $10,000 i then decided i was going to do it myself and save money and bought a old used lowboy trailer wich i found for $3800 as my brother-in-law had a couple semi tractors wich he offered to pull it with and i figured when done i could resell it and recoup my money.It was quite the experience as i also scoffed at the high prices for crane rentals.So i ended up jacking the hack up in the air 3-4 ft. blocking it with a steel beam in front and rolling the wheelsets out from under and backing the trailer under and lowering wich took a good half day.Lifting 18 tons up in the air 3-4 ft. gets pretty squirrly.I've since moved a old 40ft boxcar the same way.Is it worth all the trouble just to save some bucks? "Absolutely Not"! It's alot of hard work with to many risks.Sure i got my hack in the backyard, something that i always wanted and dreamed of but it's never ending work,the windows,painting upkeep ect.and it still costs money.But then again what doesn't cost money now a days !

[GOLDEN-ARM]

You gotta remember, at the time, that very old (yet very special) hack was owned by ConRail, and was on their property, being moved across their railroad. No restrictions come into play, for a road moving it's own equipment. As long as the C.O.T.S. is in date, and the piece of equipment meets the requirements of the Initial Terminal Air Test (now called a Class-1 Test) it was good to go. The Wheeling move was most likely inside their interchange limits, and they had no "issues" moving it a few feet, for a few bucks. The problem comes when you try to move foreign equipment across foreign carriers. Nobody want the liabilities, associated with moving something that will take up precious time, and resources better spent chasing continuing streams of revenue. Unless you have huge amounts of money, and very close, and very influential connections with all the carriers involved, the chances of moving equipment not purchased directly from the originating carrier might be impossible. Trucking, or movement on a flatcar (if you can order one, find a suitable location to load it, then pay for the move itself) are probably going to be the only way to get that equipment, from point "A" to point "B", or beyond....

[GSC]

In my experience, moving rail equipment is best left to the professionals. A quality heavy hauling trucking outfit who knows what it's doing.

Not the only one out there, but Daily Express out of Carlisle PA has done so many of these moves, and they handle them like they're not a big deal. Saves a lot of hassle going this way. Not cheap, but would you expect something like this to be cheap?

[caboose9]

GSC wrote, "Moving rail equipment is best left to the professionals. A heavy hauling trucking outfit who knows what it's doing."


Hi,

Is that how the PRR #?/NJTR #? steel, cupola, caboose that was by the Rail Trail & Depot in Port Monmouth, NJ, was moved?

Where did that cabin car go to?

Thanks, Roger

[march hare]

Some cheap advice from somebody who owns his own caboose, as a backyard decoration:

Hire A Trucker.

Specifically, hire a house mover. He'll lift up the body, lower it onto roadworthy dollies, and deliver it to you in a few days.

If you go the low boy route, check your overall height--depressed center trailers don't normally have a pocket big enough for a caboose, and if you just put it on a flat, you may have some interesting encounters with overpasses and power lines.

I moved a CN wide vision back in the 90s, had it delivered by rail (it was on roller bearings, thus not an issue) then trucked from the siding to its current home.

[Otto Vondrak]

For those wanting a real LV hack, here's one for sale, right now. I want one, but I want the 95032, or the 95050, or the 1776. This one seems like a good deal, if you can move it...... HACK

Here's the old gal, back in the day

This is her, today

Wait a second, according to our records, the Catskill Mountain Railroad owns 95041, its in Mount Pleasant, NY on the CMRR, used as a gift shop. Wore it's LV paint until about two years ago. So if CMRR has 95041, what car was for sale?

Here's a picture of our LV caboose, before it was repainted.

http://www.railroadforums.com/forum/sho ... p?p=137941

-otto-

[BR&P]

Come on, Otto - read the earlier posts in this exact thread. LV 95069 was repainted to 95041 for reasons unknown. The one for sale is 95041, the one in Mt. Pleasant is really 95069.

[scottychaos]

Why would they give a caboose the wrong number?

but there is even more confusion that that..
Because we have several bits of conflicting data:

1. statement - LV 95069 currently exists at the Catskill Railroad and is incorrectly numbered as 95041.

2. the real 95041 was the one for sale on ebay.

3. But I have 95042 listed as the LV cab list at CMRR.
http://gold.mylargescale.com/Scottychao ... umber.html

could be wrong obviously..but I think that came from Rogers original list..
which is usually very accurate.

4. I dont have 95041 or 95069 listed as a survivor!
which according to 1 and 2 above, both exist!

So if 95069 is really at CMRR, incorrectly numbered as 95061. (I have no reason to doubt that)
then where did the REAL 95061 end up?

And why do I have 95042 listed as being at CMRR?
clearly some incorrect info is floating around!

but which of these conflicting bits of data are really the truth?

can anyone confirm, with absolute certainty, that 95069 is REALLY at the Catskill Railroad and is incorrectly numbered as 95041?

anyone have any pics before it was repainted as 95041?

thanks!
Scot

[scottychaos]

Here is an older thread..to add even more to the confusion!

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... &sk=t&sd=a

Which puts a FOURTH LV caboose number into the mix!
"You show 95036 at Mt. Pleasant NY, I have that one as 95042"

A guy from CMRR itself said their cab is the real 95041..
which would imply its painted correctly..

I would tend to believe the railroad..but anyone can get confused by conflicting data..

in cases like this, I would rely on photos..(nothing personal about anyone with number data!
but when three different people give three different numbers for the same caboose..we have to go to something more concrete..photos..or anything still visible on the caboose itself..

is perhaps any of the old Conrail numbers still visible on that caboose at CMRR?
often the Conrail markings are just painted over, and might be still readable under the new paint..

Was there perhaps once more than one LV caboose on the CMRR??
or different LV cabooses at different times?
if so, that could explain a lot of this..

thanks,
Scot

[BR&P]

I show LV 95042 (CR 18612) at Port Clinton PA. No further details. As noted in another post, I created my list from data on several other lists - an online site listing former CR cabooses, Roger Kirkpatrick's list, and other sources. So in this case, I can't vouch for whether the info is accurate, or even where I got a given piece of info from.

However - note that in both photos GA supplied, the smokestack is on the right hand side, so we are looking at the same side of the caboose in both shots. The LV photo shows the window blanked off by the stove. The CR cab has the window there. While it is possible, I really don't see CR removing a blank steel plate to put another window back in.

This would suggest that the CR cab, which appears to be 18617 altho the number is partially obscured, may NOT be the 95041.