Railroad Forums 

  • Amtrak and Private Passenger Proposals

  • General discussion of passenger rail systems not otherwise covered in the specific forums in this category, including high speed rail.
General discussion of passenger rail systems not otherwise covered in the specific forums in this category, including high speed rail.

Moderators: mtuandrew, gprimr1

 #1316235  by Literalman
 
My guess is that the Florida and Texas high-speed proposals might be economically viable: large population with fast service in established travel markets.

The Providence-Worcester proposal puzzles me. I used to live in Massachusetts and know the area tolerably well. I doubt that the market exists for the proposed service to run without subsidy.

If any or all of the proposed services should succeed, I think that Amtrak and the private operators would benefit from through ticketing, joint reservations, and anything else that makes rail travel as easy as possible for passengers. This would increase revenue for all the companies.
 #1316251  by jonnhrr
 
I read the article on the Worcester - Providence proposal. A couple of things puzzle me.

It talks about leasing 5 train sets and purchasing 5. They must mean passenger cars as 10 sets is overkill for 3 trips a day.

Given the level of traffic on route 146 on a given day there seem to be a lot of commuters, but I wonder how many of them are going downtown to downtown.
Would it be worth extending the run to TF Green to tap in to that potential market? Of course a traveler to the airport could always change to the MBTA run service at Providence.
Also not sure about the logistics of running down to TF Green off of the P&W is.

The article said there were no privately run passenger operations currently, but there is the Maine Eastern run from Brunswick to Rockland, admittedly summer only and not every day, but still seems a legitimate passenger service, especially now that it connects with the Downeaster.

Jon
 #1316253  by deathtopumpkins
 
Literalman wrote:The Providence-Worcester proposal puzzles me. I used to live in Massachusetts and know the area tolerably well. I doubt that the market exists for the proposed service to run without subsidy.
It puzzles all of us up here too. None of the financials seem to add up (start-up cost way too low, for one), but P&W seems to be on board with it.

I can't see it ever happening though. Sure, commuter rail from Worcester to Providence I could see at some point in the future being a logical extension of RIDOT's eventual Providence - Woonsocket service, but not privately operated as this guy plans to.
 #1316265  by ExCon90
 
As to the P&W being on board with it, is there a possibility that they're just playing along in case the Boston Surface Railroad manages to get some public money to beef up the railroad? No skin off their nose if the commuter service bombs or never happens--they've still got some nice track out of it.
 #1316321  by SouthernRailway
 
Just because some additional companies are planning privately-run passenger trains doesn't change the economics of the business, which make it nearly impossible to run without government subsidy or some other financial benefit to the provider.

Thus I don't see Amtrak ever being displaced; privately-run passenger trains may surface here and there, but they are just sidenotes.
 #1316331  by MBTA3247
 
Amtrak also has an advantage in that the freight railroads are required by law to allow its trains to run over their tracks, but are perfectly free to tell anyone else to take a hike.
 #1316418  by The EGE
 
Rhode Island already has fairly detailed plans for commuter service at least as far as Woonsocket. It'll wait until South County service reaches Kingston (around 2016) and Westerly (a few years thereafter), but it's obviously the next major corridor in the state. The studies have specced out exactly what you'd expect - basic, Providence-centered commuter rail service with fairly modest track upgrades and commuter rail fares. Operated by P&W unless the MBTA is in (which may be the case if Worcester starts agitating for service extended there). Conventional commuter rail equipment. And it'll be state-subsidized (farebox recovery around 30%) under the for-the-public-benefit model of commuter rail driving economic activity. Standard stuff.

"Boston Surface Railroad" wants to make money off that. It's a scam. I'm not sure if they're going for bilking private investors, or to force the state's hand to buy them out before real commuter rail service can happen, but they're not playing fair. (I should note that AAF and TCR seem to be legit. AAF is a well-thought-out real estate venture (with passenger service as a goodwill-creating loss leader) by an established railroad; if anything, it improves the prospects of conventional commuter service on the line as well. TCR seems to be confident that for-profit HSR can work; while I'm not sure if they're right, they're doing so in a state with flat, empty areas between dense cities where politics makes a state operate system unlikely.)

P&W doesn't care either way. If they get money to run trains, that's business. If someone else pays to improve their physical plant, all the better for P&W. They've shown themselves to be friendly to passenger service if it benefits them as well. They're - oddly enough - a neutral party likely to work in good faith with whoever shows them the money.
 #1344316  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
The EGE wrote:Rhode Island already has fairly detailed plans for commuter service at least as far as Woonsocket. It'll wait until South County service reaches Kingston (around 2016) and Westerly (a few years thereafter), but it's obviously the next major corridor in the state. The studies have specced out exactly what you'd expect - basic, Providence-centered commuter rail service with fairly modest track upgrades and commuter rail fares. Operated by P&W unless the MBTA is in (which may be the case if Worcester starts agitating for service extended there). Conventional commuter rail equipment. And it'll be state-subsidized (farebox recovery around 30%) under the for-the-public-benefit model of commuter rail driving economic activity. Standard stuff.

"Boston Surface Railroad" wants to make money off that. It's a scam. I'm not sure if they're going for bilking private investors, or to force the state's hand to buy them out before real commuter rail service can happen, but they're not playing fair. (I should note that AAF and TCR seem to be legit. AAF is a well-thought-out real estate venture (with passenger service as a goodwill-creating loss leader) by an established railroad; if anything, it improves the prospects of conventional commuter service on the line as well. TCR seems to be confident that for-profit HSR can work; while I'm not sure if they're right, they're doing so in a state with flat, empty areas between dense cities where politics makes a state operate system unlikely.)

P&W doesn't care either way. If they get money to run trains, that's business. If someone else pays to improve their physical plant, all the better for P&W. They've shown themselves to be friendly to passenger service if it benefits them as well. They're - oddly enough - a neutral party likely to work in good faith with whoever shows them the money.
RI's 2014 State Rail Plan calls for a joint RIDOT-MassDOT study about real-deal Providence-Worcester commuter rail as a follow-on...many years later...to the Providence-Woonsocket CR plan that's more or less a lock to happen in the 2020-22 range. I wouldn't expect real PRV-WOR service until the mid- or late-2020's, but the state is intent on quantifying the numbers sooner and getting all stakeholders to the table to talk possibilities. They also want a joint MassDOT study for extending the Franklin Line back to Blackstone reconnected to the P&W main so the MBTA can wrap around to Woonsocket station and do Boston-Woonsocket CR service, which would turn Woonsocket station into a major intermodal hub. All very sensible plans, stepped out over the long-term with Providence-Woonsocket the only current going concern, with solid fundamentals over the long-term.

All this grifter is doing is trying to claim squatter's rights so he gets a big payday from the states when they institute their own service, and subsidy in the meantime to run his service. It's no accident that this company was magically incorporated with nothing more than an Arlington, MA P.O. Box within a few months of RI's State Rail Plan being finalized. Grifters gonna grift.


Also...P&W is not "on board" with this. Their spokesflaks limited their comments to just playing up their enthusiasm for passenger service--any non-specific operated passenger service--on their main(s). To the degree they addressed this proposal they just sort of listed the advantages of their Class 3/60 MPH infrastructure re: short service startups and said they're willing to talk. Nobody has confirmed that they've actually talked, or that they talked and this guy passed the laugh test with them. Ultimately they want what any Class II wants when it tries to bait passenger proposals: public $$$ to buy them a better freight railroad. Damn straight they're going to grab any leverage they can to push that. But P&W's a publicly traded company. There is no way they're getting in bed with scammers when Wall Street can punish their stock for taking irresponsible risks. They are very conservative and above-board about how they present themselves to investors as running a tight and risk-managed ship. There is no freaking way P&W's going to get very far along in talks with this guy, if talks are happening at all. The wild risk is too anomalous to how they protect their stock price from risk.