New South Wales, Australia | New bi-level interurban trains

[Myrtone]

I would like to mention that a intercity electric railways in New South Wales, radiating from the Sydney metropolitan area, and these are about to see new bi-level trains which will likely be imported. Among the respondents to the expression of interest, Hyundai Rotem and Bombardier both have supplied bi-level trains in North America, though locomotive hauled, not multiple units.
If anyone here is not only familiar with North American bi-levels but has also investigated interurbans rail in New South Wales, any thoughts on whether North American style (long wheelbase) bi-level trains would work in NSW?

[kaitoku]

Well, the standard length of railcars in N. America is 85ft., or close to 26 meters. A quick check shows the length of A sets used by Sydney trains to be 20m, while the V sets are 24m long. There may be issues of interference to the loading gauge due to track curvature if 26m long sets are used. If you want more capacity, better to increase frequency of service/reduce headways- in line with the concept of Organisation vor Elektronik vor Beton, or "organization before electronics before concrete".

[electricron]

I would like to mention that a intercity electric railways in New South Wales, radiating from the Sydney metropolitan area, and these are about to see new bi-level trains which will likely be imported. Among the respondents to the expression of interest, Hyundai Rotem and Bombardier both have supplied bi-level trains in North America, though locomotive hauled, not multiple units.
If anyone here is not only familiar with North American bi-levels but has also investigated interurbans rail in New South Wales, any thoughts on whether North American style (long wheelbase) bi-level trains would work in NSW?

Nippon Sharyo supplies bi-level EMUs and railcars in the USA, so multiple units exist. As to whether they could be used in Australia as is, I'm sure the designs could be modified to work. I wouldn't discount any of the designs. Although I believe lighter weight European bi-level designs would be a better choice.

I'm not that familiar with clearances in Australia - including overhead clearances - per line (corridor). Bi-levels in the USA have different heights because they need to meet different overhead clearances.

[Myrtone]

I think our overhead clearences are typical of world standards. Note that the NSW double decker trains are patial low floor with the upper deck only above the low floor area, and have 40% more floor area and twice as many seats with less standing room than equivalent single deckers. I've seen photos of long wheelbase double deckers, in Europe as well as North America, and I would guess that these have even more floor area and seats when compared to 85' single deckers.
I didn't realise that there were bi-level EMUs in North America, that's contrary to what I read in another discuission somewhere else. And I checked out some photos of the Nippon Shyaro EMUs, and suprisingly these have over-wheel lower decks and end to end upper decks and run on overhead electrified track. Such bi-level trains, whatever the length, would have twice the floor area and twice as many seats. However, I would imagine, as seems evident from the height of the pantographs, that these electrified lines have higher than standard overhead wires, demanding custom made gantries and meaning that single decker EMUs using them would either need pedestals or taller and thus custom made pantographs. I wonder whether it also requires non-standard OHW maintainence support equipment?
I've heard that frequencies on the NSW interurban lines cannot be increased.

[electricron]

I I didn't realise that there were bi-level EMUs in North America, that's contrary to what I read in another discuission somewhere else. And I checked out some photos of the Nippon Shyaro EMUs, and suprisingly these have over-wheel lower decks and end to end upper decks and run on overhead electrified track. Such bi-level trains, whatever the length, would have twice the floor area and twice as many seats. However, I would imagine, as seems evident from the height of the pantographs, that these electrified lines have higher than standard overhead wires, demanding custom made gantries and meaning that single decker EMUs using them would either need pedestals or taller and thus custom made pantographs. I wonder whether it also requires non-standard OHW maintainence support equipment?

Check out the South Shore Line out of Chicago into NW Indiana. They use both single level and bi-level EMUs built by Nippon Sharyo, and the pantographs aren't special. These bi-levels are called "Galley" cars. I would like to note the upper deck is split, with one seat on either side and a hole in the middle. The conductor can check for tickets of the upper deck passengers while walking on the lower deck. Therefore, it doesn't carry twice the passengers of a single level car. It's also not as tall as you thought it might be.

[Myrtone]

It's not clear how the passengers get to seats on the upper deck when there is a hole above the aisle? I have not been able to find a video taken onboard one of them!

[CHTT1]

Metra Electric is in the middle of replacing its Highliner fleet with double-deck EMUs built by Nippon Sharyon in Rochelle, IL. These are gallery cars. The original Highliners have been in service since 1971.

[electricron]

It's not clear how the passengers get to seats on the upper deck when there is a hole above the aisle? I have not been able to find a video taken onboard one of them!

It's not easy to get to and from the upper level seats. Here's a link to a photo.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ct3qRjNPwh8/U ... allery.jpg

[ExCon90]

It's hard to see in the photo, but there is a narrow stairway leading from each gallery to the double doors in the background. Not easy if you have luggage, but it will do for commuters. And if you do have luggage or something cumbersome you can always sit downstairs.

[Myrtone]

One wonders why then they continue to order new Gallery type cars rather than low floor bi-level cars, surely in this day and age, you don't need a slot for the conductor. Does Nippon Shyaro also supply that other more common type of bi-level?
And those gallery type trains do seem to have typical North Amercan style bells.

[electricron]

One wonders why then they continue to order new Gallery type cars rather than low floor bi-level cars, surely in this day and age, you don't need a slot for the conductor. Does Nippon Shyaro also supply that other more common type of bi-level?
And those gallery type trains do seem to have typical North Amercan style bells.

These are commuter rail train operations, not metro trains or light rail operations. Trains that share tracks with freight trains, i.e. commuter rail, are regulated by the FRA which requires conductors. Metro trains and light rail trains don't operate on shared tracks with freight trains, are regulated by the FTA, don't require conductors - although some sort of personnel are required to enforce fares.

[Myrtone]

Do they actually require conductors, or just a second crew of some description, such as a guard, just like on Sydney trains? I would guess the bi-level trains of any considerable length are unsuitable for one man operation, especially with station spacing appropriate for such trains.
Does any North American commuter rail have underground sections and if so, is any of it served by bi-level trains, or at least has tunnels at least as large as those in Sydney, which do accommodate the typical NSW EMU?

But really, there are three types of train often called "bi-level;" split-level with part low floor and and upper deck over the low floor area, gallery type with the upper deck only over the seats on the lower deck and with an open area above the aisle. All "bi level" EMUs and electric locomotive hauled "bi-level" trains are of one of these types. Then there are true bi-level trains with an end-to-end upper deck and over-wheel lower deck. But there don't seem to be any cases of them on electrified track, probably because overhead wires aren't ever high enough for them. Making OHW that high would require taller than usual gantries and other oddball specs mentioned above. Have true bi-level (or hi-level) electric trains ever been proposed?