Childrens Museum Utica NY

[Railjunkie]

Well Otto looks like I was right on the money, try not to post rumors just facts. No

I didn't want to go there, but since you asked, let's dissect your original post for facts:

Was brought to my attention yesterday

By whom?

The Women in charge dosent like trains and sees no use to having the equipment.

What "Women," and has someone gone on record saying this?

Kids have climbed all over that stuff for years and there never been a problem until now.

Agreed.

So all I'm trying to find out is who made initial contact with you, and who is the person at the museum who is seeking the removal of the equipment? That's all, no one's accusing you of posting rumors, just trying to get to the heart of the issue without being evasive and dealing with "they" and "them."

-otto-

The whom were the ticket agents on duty in the UCA station. As for the womens name it escapes me at this time, all I was told is she is the director of the meseum. I carry enough stuff in my grip as it is but next time Ill bring a tape recorder and a stenographer, that way Ill get the facts on tape and paper.

This is the reason I very rarely put anything up on this site, your the author with all the connections do a little digging yourself. I put this up as a public service not to play Joe Friday, just the facts ma'am just the facts

[Amtrak700]

HAHA Railjunkie, your a funny fella...I like you

[Otto Vondrak]

This is the reason I very rarely put anything up on this site, your the author with all the connections do a little digging yourself. I put this up as a public service not to play Joe Friday, just the facts ma'am just the facts

I love how people think I have "all the connections" (whatever that means). Still waiting for your "facts," so don't get all huffy with me because I asked for some details to go with your original post. It's not a dig on you, I'm just curious to know the source of your info, as this is a pretty big deal if the equipment has to be relocated.

HAHA Railjunkie, your a funny fella...I like you

Free web sites... Ya get what ya pay for, ya know?

-otto-

[Railjunkie]

Forget it Otto, facts my ass, you dont need any more info than what I originally posted. Fact is my original post was backed up by another member. You want more info take a drive or a train to Utica and set up an appointment with whom ever is in charge.

Put this out there for public consumption and instead of being gratefull all I get is the third degree. Its BULLSHIT. By the way huffy made bikes back in the 70s which is the last time I heard that word used.

[goodnightjohnwayne]

The locomotive is an RSC2, originally Seaboard Air Line, to Florida Power & Light, to the original incarnation of the Adirondack Railroad, which it's painted as today, after that it bounced around the Utica area for a few years as a parts source for the NYS&W and I think Rome Locomotive, but I'm not 100% on the details. In any case it never belonged to the New York Central. As locomotives go it's a fairly rare model today, although it's basically an RS2 with A1A trucks - it spreads the weight out some, making it more suitable to use on lighter track.

Considering all the derailments that occurred at the time of the 1980 Olympics, I'm glad that this "rare" 6-axle locomotive will never operate again. There isn't much reason for nostalgia over that failed venture. I somehow doubt that this oddball locomotive was the sole cause of the derailments, which mostly came down to rotten ties and a scant number of shoddy replacement ties, but all of the oddball equipment, such as this locomotive and all of the heavyweight era cars, couldn't have helped. I think there are still taxpayers who still feel outraged by the state money that was wasted back in 1980.

Thankfully, the current Adirondack Scenic Railroad is very well run. It's an admirably well run. Personally, I suspect that the track between Thendara and Saranac Lake is in better shape in 2010 than it was back in 1980, even though it is just used for seasonal equipment moves. I have to respect the people who run the current operation.

[Luther Brefo]

Considering all the derailments that occurred at the time of the 1980 Olympics, I'm glad that this "rare" 6-axle locomotive will never operate again. There isn't much reason for nostalgia over that failed venture.

What failed venture? The idea of six axle locomotives? If so look around, all new construction (not gensets on old frames) of locomotives is based on the six axle principle. If you're talking about the original Adirondack Railroad, its a lesson in time of what not to do, or how not to do it. Something that the current Scenic seems to have figured out.

I somehow doubt that this oddball locomotive was the sole cause of the derailments, which mostly came down to rotten ties and a scant number of shoddy replacement ties, but all of the oddball equipment, such as this locomotive and all of the heavyweight era cars, couldn't have helped.

I never understood why people are quick to place any blame on the equipment. As if they had a choice in the matter. If the track was shit then, it's better now. If you took an SD80MAC onto the track today it might fair better but I doubt the locomotive would inform you in Kit's voice, "Michael, I don't think this is a good idea. We might derail." You may be missing the point of preservation here. Unique and odd examples are what make preservation interesting. If everyone had copies of the same things it'd be a boring preservation scene. Just a thought.

I think there are still taxpayers who still feel outraged by the state money that was wasted back in 1980.

Let's leave politics out of it for now but I will say this. Those who voted for the people who then employed those making the decisions should not complain. Just as those who never voiced their opinions by voting have no right to complain that things are not going their way... Those who voted for the ones who lost. Well apparently they were on the wrong team to begin with and we'll never know what their candidate would truly have done, and as such they're not allowed to bitch either. Politics in a nutshell.

[Noel Weaver]

The six axle locomotive on the Adirondack was an example of the wrong locomotive at the wrong place at the wrong time.
It was derailment prone and was only used when necessary. Trouble was at the end it was one of the only locomotives that
could run and they had no choice but to use it practically on a daily basis. I was very glad that they were using it on the other
train on the day that I rode to Lake Placid and back in 1980.
Noel Weaver

[kinlock]

If you view the Adirondack Railroad (1980) in retrospect, it WAS A SUCCESS. The State of New York invested as a means of keeping cars off the road (gee, they were thinking ahead of their time). Never saw any passenger counts, but those trains were not empty!

...Ken

[tree68]

Never mind the individual characteristics of the "Tampa Tiger" and the condition of the track at the time, the Mohawk & Malone isn't exactly known for miles and miles of tangent - there are more than a few 5.5 degree curves, not exactly the friendliest territory for a six axle, moreso for an early example of the breed.

I've encountered accusations that not all of the money intended for things like track maintenance ended up going into the track, finding a home in a pocket or two instead. But that's probably third hand (or more) information and may or may not have a basis in fact.

[Otto Vondrak]

Forget it Otto, facts my ass, you dont need any more info than what I originally posted. Fact is my original post was backed up by another member. You want more info take a drive or a train to Utica and set up an appointment with whom ever is in charge. Put this out there for public consumption and instead of being gratefull all I get is the third degree. Its *. By the way huffy made bikes back in the 70s which is the last time I heard that word used.

Well, just like those bikes, I was made in the 1970's too! I'm sorry you're upset that I asked for facts to back up your initial post. I don't see what your posterior has to do with any of this? Maybe you wouldn't get the "third degree" if you actually told a complete story in the first place. If you have incomplete information, then just say so! We expect the same level of clarity from everyone who posts here. And that's the truth.

Let's get back to the matter at hand. Is the museum actively seeking the removal of the trains from their property? Is this the wish of one person or a unanimous position of the Board? If so, is the Utica Chapter in a financial position to move them off-site? And if they can't afford to move them, then what?

-otto-

[lvrr325]

Considering all the derailments that occurred at the time of the 1980 Olympics, I'm glad that this "rare" 6-axle locomotive will never operate again. There isn't much reason for nostalgia over that failed venture. I somehow doubt that this oddball locomotive was the sole cause of the derailments, which mostly came down to rotten ties and a scant number of shoddy replacement ties, but all of the oddball equipment, such as this locomotive and all of the heavyweight era cars, couldn't have helped. I think there are still taxpayers who still feel outraged by the state money that was wasted back in 1980.

Well, it is rare, that I know of only two or three exist anywhere; it wasn't particularly common when new either. It's a factory Alco model. But it seems rather ponderous to take cheer in the inoperability of a locomotive simply because one's personal feelings about the railroad who owned it are less than enthusiastic. An RSC-2 is made for primarily tangent, light rail branch lines, which is why the SAL and to a lesser extent the Milwaukee Road (on their eastern end) were the biggest users of them. Throw it at curves and sloppy track and the middle axle contributing to the rigidity of the overall wheelbase, combined with the lighter per-axle loading, is going to make it more derailment prone. Which your message even goes on to admit, the engine was not the problem. I suspect that on today's Adirondack, it would be fine, and elsewhere it certainly should be able to run anywhere an SD40-2 or similar unit can go.

While I agree we don't need to get into the politics of the Adirondack in this thread, given the current political situation both in NY and in the country overall, I'd have to downright question the sanity of someone still angry about tax money the state spent here thirty years ago. The money is gone, most of the people responsible for spending the money are gone, and frankly there are a lot more important fish to be frying.

[Cactus Jack]

We could debate the RSC-2 and ADK of 1977-80 forever. I was there in '80, worked with the "Tiger", drew a paycheck (that cashed) from ADK, worked for the new Adirondack, worked on the new track rehab AND have "borrowed parts from the #25 for the RS-3 (8223) and know both operations from then and now and equipment & track better than I care to think about. But you are all throwing out alot of speculation ... lets get back to the point with this thread, the equipment at the Children's Museum.

As a member of the U&MV Chpater, and past director, there has been an uneasy alliance for a long time with the Children's Museum. The intent of the Chapter was to preserve equipment for future generations in a venue that allowed exposure, education and fun within a railroad setting. Look at the pics posted here and I think the execution was a success. Very good presentation and good interpretative venue. The situation is what to do and where to go now. Flamming at the Children's Museum is not the solution, let those with the vested interest work those angles and play out any possible strategies. Hopefully a solution can be found, with or without the Children's Museum. All was done years ago in good faith. Times changed and if the equipment has to be moved it is not going to be cheap or easy.

[Benjamin Maggi]

Though I am partially to blame for the problem, it seems as if this thread has certainly split into three directions: attacking the Adirondack Scenic Railroad's operations in 1980, attacking the Children Museum's plans for the equipment, and the "discussion" with/about how information makes it here. Since only the 2nd one is responsive to the original topic, and since any more public discussion on it might only hurt the NRHS's chances of working with the Museum, I would suggest that this post be locked.

[Otto Vondrak]

The situation is what to do and where to go now. Flamming at the Children's Museum is not the solution, let those with the vested interest work those angles and play out any possible strategies. Hopefully a solution can be found, with or without the Children's Museum. All was done years ago in good faith. Times changed and if the equipment has to be moved it is not going to be cheap or easy.

So you're saying that this is a decision that has already come down from the museum management? That is unfortunate. What kind of time frame have they given you to raise the money to relocate the equipment? And where will it be relocated to?

-otto-

[lvrr325]

Does the U&MV chapter offer it's newsletter online that perhaps the portions related to this issue could be copied or directly quoted from without a huge hassle?

It might not hurt to send a few polite letters to the Children's museum that politely say that you won't attend the museum in the future if they remove the train exhibit. As for what to do with the stuff, assuming there's enough wheels and flanges left I would think all three pieces could have their brakes repaired enough to be moved again on live rail - perhaps put them where the FL9 was for now if they really need to be moved in a hurry, then fix what's needed and they could be taken north, or to Rome, or whereever they can find some room to store them.

Ideally what would be nice is if the U&MV could obtain a place to put them on display that's right there, like the 0-6-0 is, so they don't ultimately move very far, and where the folks who run the Children's Museum still have to look at them every day.