BR&P wrote:TO Conductor & Engineman of 197 at Otis NYWas "Otis" the name of the yard near Browns' Square?
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Otis yard was just south of Lyell Avenue - back in those days the line went through what is now Frontier Field, over the canal, then split with the Charlotte Branch and the Falls Branch going their separate ways. At some point - I don't know what year - the line from CP 35 / CP 373 was built and Falls Road and Charlotte trains used that.
Otis depot was located on the east side of the Charlotte branch, immediately north of Lyell Ave. It was torn down somewhere in the 1980's I think.
Otis depot was located on the east side of the Charlotte branch, immediately north of Lyell Ave. It was torn down somewhere in the 1980's I think.
July 31, 1978
Good luck does NOT come in unlimited quantities. During the afternoon shift, the East Base crew, EB-2, reported a broken rail on the Coal Yard lead between the Track 2 and Track 3 switches. It was a clean break and they said it looked to have been broken for quite a while. The track department was notified.
DWSE dropped 43 cars into the yard over that track, followed by the Fairport local with 31 cars.The Second Belt's power came to the west end of the yard over that break. EB2 was to switch track 5 in the coal yard, and 19 cars were taken east over the break. Unfortunately, the 20th, 21st, and 22nd cars derailed. Well, it got the broken rail fixed!
July 31, 1997
Ontario Central track crew installed 17 ties on the hill at Victor Insulator, and 16 ties on the main just west of the Rt 332 bridge. After the track guys left, a revenue run was made, 2 out and 1 car in, with the train crew stopping to spike up one tie at Manchester.
Good luck does NOT come in unlimited quantities. During the afternoon shift, the East Base crew, EB-2, reported a broken rail on the Coal Yard lead between the Track 2 and Track 3 switches. It was a clean break and they said it looked to have been broken for quite a while. The track department was notified.
DWSE dropped 43 cars into the yard over that track, followed by the Fairport local with 31 cars.The Second Belt's power came to the west end of the yard over that break. EB2 was to switch track 5 in the coal yard, and 19 cars were taken east over the break. Unfortunately, the 20th, 21st, and 22nd cars derailed. Well, it got the broken rail fixed!
July 31, 1997
Ontario Central track crew installed 17 ties on the hill at Victor Insulator, and 16 ties on the main just west of the Rt 332 bridge. After the track guys left, a revenue run was made, 2 out and 1 car in, with the train crew stopping to spike up one tie at Manchester.
August 16, 1979
Rochester was awash in Caledonia empties. P&L Jct had been torn up by a 6-car derailment at 11PM the previous evening. A Buffalo-Rochester Turnaround was called which came light with caboose to Rochester, and took 102 empty salt cars west to Buffalo. From there they were sent over the former EL and delivered at Greigsville.
Rochester was awash in Caledonia empties. P&L Jct had been torn up by a 6-car derailment at 11PM the previous evening. A Buffalo-Rochester Turnaround was called which came light with caboose to Rochester, and took 102 empty salt cars west to Buffalo. From there they were sent over the former EL and delivered at Greigsville.
I do find it interesting that Conrail preferred trackage rights on the B&O over using their own rails on the former EL to interchange with the G&W.
Matt Langworthy
"It is highly likely that the 1990s were an overrated decade."
"It is highly likely that the 1990s were an overrated decade."
Putting it on the B&O made it Rochester terminal work and eliminated the need to maintain any separate line into Caledonia. The old DL&W was kept for D&H's ability to interchange.
I was referring to the former Lackawanna main, not the Erie. CR kept the segment to Groveland until the mid '80s, so I'm puzzled as to why they didn't use the line for the salt traffic. (Yes, I know the D&H used it.)
Matt Langworthy
"It is highly likely that the 1990s were an overrated decade."
"It is highly likely that the 1990s were an overrated decade."
Matt Langworthy wrote:I was referring to the former Lackawanna main, not the Erie. CR kept the segment to Groveland until the mid '80s, so I'm puzzled as to why they didn't use the line for the salt traffic. (Yes, I know the D&H used it.)The overwhelming majority of the salt traffic moved east. Ballpark average, if the job came to Rochester with 100 cars, 95 of them went east. (Well, to be honest, all 100 of them went east, and the 5 westbounds went over the hump at Selkirk and came west a couple days later). It was quicker and less costly to bring it to Rochester than over the EL to Buffalo and then east. Back in those days, it was deemed sensible to minimize out-of-route backhauls. Today it's all part of "the plan" and cars are sent hundreds of miles extra in the name of following that plan. But they seem to be making it work, so what do I know?
Matt Langworthy wrote:I was referring to the former Lackawanna main, not the Erie. CR kept the segment to Groveland until the mid '80s, so I'm puzzled as to why they didn't use the line for the salt traffic. (Yes, I know the D&H used it.)So in the long run what you're referring to is the old Lackawanna to where it met the Erie/NYC lines north of Alexander (I know they ran within feet of each other, honestly I don't know which one was the "kept" one for that connection) and then down to the Erie line in Attica, then back up the Erie to Buffalo? That's probably a bit slower and longer, and particularly as BR&P mentioned, if most of the salt was destined for destinations east, taxing an already busy single-main line from Attica to Buffalo, especially with no real yard anywhere between (Attica's "yard" barely counted IMO), was probably out of the question. Not to mention, B&O was upkeeping the line, why would CR work to keep more traffic on the longer (probably worse-shape) line in the wrong direction?
I wasn't alive back then so I don't know how much of my speculation makes sense, but that's how I'd see it.
Remember also the EL was a late addition to the system plan and not really wanted by the planners, so they would be less likely to run traffic on the EL side.
But, yes, using the B&O kept the traffic from needing to run to Buffalo, then east. And eventually with G&W's expansion even that became redundant.
But, yes, using the B&O kept the traffic from needing to run to Buffalo, then east. And eventually with G&W's expansion even that became redundant.
ctclark1 wrote:So in the long run what you're referring to is the old Lackawanna to where it met the Erie/NYC lines north of Alexander (I know they ran within feet of each other, honestly I don't know which one was the "kept" one for that connection) and then down to the Erie line in Attica, then back up the Erie to Buffalo? That's probably a bit slower and longer, and particularly as BR&P mentioned, if most of the salt was destined for destinations east, taxing an already busy single-main line from Attica to Buffalo, especially with no real yard anywhere between (Attica's "yard" barely counted IMO), was probably out of the question. Not to mention, B&O was upkeeping the line, why would CR work to keep more traffic on the longer (probably worse-shape) line in the wrong direction?The DL&W met the Erie north of Alexander, but it didn't reach Attica or the NYC. The Tier was averaging about 15-20 trains per day in the '70s, so adding a pair of salt trains wouldn't have hurt. In fact, the D&H did that very thing... but I digress. It is rendered moot by:
BR&P wrote:The overwhelming majority of the salt traffic moved east. Ballpark average, if the job came to Rochester with 100 cars, 95 of them went east. (Well, to be honest, all 100 of them went east, and the 5 westbounds went over the hump at Selkirk and came west a couple days later). It was quicker and less costly to bring it to Rochester than over the EL to Buffalo and then east.That makes perfect sense and now I understand the reasoning for CR using trackage rights on the B&O. I hadn't known most of the salt traffic went east in the '70s. Thanx.
Matt Langworthy
"It is highly likely that the 1990s were an overrated decade."
"It is highly likely that the 1990s were an overrated decade."
What today's fans may or may not know is that back in those days, there was pressure on lower and mid management to trim, cut and eliminate. This mentality probably started back when diesels allowed retirement of steam facilities and employees. But it continued and morphed into a "less is better" mentality which often made no sense. Managers were judged by how many jobs they could cut.
I probably have told the story before but I'll repeat it. In about 1980 or so, OMID and CR had a meeting at the Sodus office to discuss various issues. Afterward there was some informal chit-chat, and OMID's president asked the CR division superintendent whether the Geneva-Canandaigua segment might be in line to spin off to a shortline ( the ONCT already connected to that line). Now obviously the division super is not the ultimate authority on what gets abandoned, but he certainly would have input. The man said "Right now, no. I send the crew west to Canandaigua 2 days a week, and east to Auburn 3 days a week and it works well. BUT - Mobil Chemical at Canandaigua is talking about expanding, and tripling their traffic. They would want a daily switch. If that happens it would mean an additional crew to be put on, and I'd have to get rid of the line." And that was NOT said in humor.
The routing of the salt traffic over the B&O allowed the removal of the Peanut from Batavia to Caledonia, and allowed Batavia Yard to be downsized and eliminated the office and crew room there. Power could be maintained at the Rochester engine house along with the rest of the Rochester power, and would eliminate the need to send mechanics to Batavia to change brake shoes, add water, and trouble-shoot. Waybilling would be more accurate at Goodman Street also. So there was a lot of sense in the decision. No idea how much $$$ the B&O charged but apparently it worked well for CR to make the change.
I probably have told the story before but I'll repeat it. In about 1980 or so, OMID and CR had a meeting at the Sodus office to discuss various issues. Afterward there was some informal chit-chat, and OMID's president asked the CR division superintendent whether the Geneva-Canandaigua segment might be in line to spin off to a shortline ( the ONCT already connected to that line). Now obviously the division super is not the ultimate authority on what gets abandoned, but he certainly would have input. The man said "Right now, no. I send the crew west to Canandaigua 2 days a week, and east to Auburn 3 days a week and it works well. BUT - Mobil Chemical at Canandaigua is talking about expanding, and tripling their traffic. They would want a daily switch. If that happens it would mean an additional crew to be put on, and I'd have to get rid of the line." And that was NOT said in humor.
The routing of the salt traffic over the B&O allowed the removal of the Peanut from Batavia to Caledonia, and allowed Batavia Yard to be downsized and eliminated the office and crew room there. Power could be maintained at the Rochester engine house along with the rest of the Rochester power, and would eliminate the need to send mechanics to Batavia to change brake shoes, add water, and trouble-shoot. Waybilling would be more accurate at Goodman Street also. So there was a lot of sense in the decision. No idea how much $$$ the B&O charged but apparently it worked well for CR to make the change.
To expand a little on the NYC-EL north of Attica. The two lines indeed were within feet of each other most of the way from Batavia and Attica. Both road beds are still visible north of Attica. However, the NYC track were torn up in the early Thirties after mixed train service ended. NYC obtained trackage rights over the Erie but if they were used it was seldom. The Erie and NYC had passed under the DL&W a few miles north of Alexander. EL built a ramp up to the DL&W main which was elevated on a fill at this spot over a low lying flood prone area by the Tonawanda Creek. This allowed them to abandon the old Lackawanna Main from Depew to Alexander which had no customers by that time. When PC ran salt trains from Batavia, trains ran at a pretty slow speed over the branch from Batavia to Caledonia and cars still had to picked up in Batavia and taken East. The four units used for the salt trains also had to be fueled and maintained at Batavia. After trains switched to the B&O, they were able to move at track speed with little interference as the B&O usually ran only a single train in and out of Rochester plus a late evening local. However as we have seen from this thread, things sometimes went amiss.
I have become familiar with the Attica/Alexander area in recent years... but I pulled out my SPV Atlas for confirmation. The DL&W stayed well south of Batavia. In fact, the Lackawanna main never came in sight of the NYC RR between Painted Post and Darien. I think you are referring to the old Attica & Arcade RR extension which later became the Attica & Freedom RR. It was not part of the NYC RR. The A&A/A&F line ran parallel to the Erie Rochester Division from Batavia to Alexander and the rails were torn up by the early 20th century.
Matt Langworthy
"It is highly likely that the 1990s were an overrated decade."
"It is highly likely that the 1990s were an overrated decade."
BR&P is correct. You must have missed it in the Atlas. The NYC ran from Batavia to Attica. Originally it then ran to Buffalo. The Erie picked up the Attica to Buffalo portion way back in its infancy when the NYC got its line from Batavia to Buffalo built. This left the line from Batavia to Attica, which as Don said, saw little traffic and ended in the 30s. The Erie had its parallel line from Attica to Batavia to then get to Caledonia and Avon.
Here is the old freighthouse in Attica of the NYC's:
The DL&W line Don refers to is the old DL&W main which was well south of Batavia.
You can see Batavia here on Scot's map. The before and after of rail rationalization.
http://gold.mylargescale.com/Scottychao ... tavia.html
Charles
Here is the old freighthouse in Attica of the NYC's:
The DL&W line Don refers to is the old DL&W main which was well south of Batavia.
You can see Batavia here on Scot's map. The before and after of rail rationalization.
http://gold.mylargescale.com/Scottychao ... tavia.html
Charles