Amtrak’s Growing Pains with Siemens Locomotives

west point wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2024 9:25 pm The ALC-42E/APV combination has some items that have not been disclosed except by speculation by some including my mistake to also speculate.
1. Will the ALC-42E be able to operate by itself without the APV connected?
2. What electric items will be in the APV?
3. Will APV have a HEP inverter?
4. How many traction motors on APV?
5. HP on those traction motors? Same 978 HP motors that are on ALCs?
6. What method and type power specification of connections between ALC-42Es and the APV
7. Any auxiliaries on APVs?
8. One or 2 PANs on APV
9. Any PAN on ALC-42Es or maybe just a provision for one?

So many questions, let's try to answer them.....
1. Probably, but why? These trains are being used under the NEC catenary. these E Venture trains (APV) and Chargers have everything in the locomotive (diesel section) as an ALC-42 non E Chargers.
2. The pantograph, transformer/s, and both HEP and Motive Power cables to the ALC-42E locomotive.
3. Why? There is already an HEP in the A:C-42E locomotive
4. All the traction motors are in the ALC-42E locomotive, with the same ratings.
5. Yes, should be the same. 42 signifies 4200 horsepower.
6. Do not know this answer. Maybe someone else has the details?
7. Probably additional equipment to operate the pantograph and cool and monitor the transformers.
8. One is all that is needed, If it fails, they can always run it on the diesel.
9. There will be a pantograph on the APV car. One will not be needed on the ALC-42E locomotive.

west point wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2024 9:25 pm 1. Will the ALC-42E be able to operate by itself without the APV connected?
2. What electric items will be in the APV?
3. Will APV have a HEP inverter?
4. How many traction motors on APV?
5. HP on those traction motors? Same 978 HP motors that are on ALCs?
6. What method and type power specification of connections between ALC-42Es and the APV
7. Any auxiliaries on APVs?
8. One or 2 PANs on APV
9. Any PAN on ALC-42Es or maybe just a provision for one?

1. Yes, in a disconnected mode. See the "D" design on the Airos.
2. (answered already above)
3/4/5. None. All traction is in the engine. See "Siemens Charger"
6/7. Unknown.
8. One Panograph.
9. No provision for one.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2024 11:48 am

west point wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2024 9:25 pm 1. Will the ALC-42E be able to operate by itself without the APV connected?
2. What electric items will be in the APV?
3. Will APV have a HEP inverter?
4. How many traction motors on APV?
5. HP on those traction motors? Same 978 HP motors that are on ALCs?
6. What method and type power specification of connections between ALC-42Es and the APV
7. Any auxiliaries on APVs?
8. One or 2 PANs on APV
9. Any PAN on ALC-42Es or maybe just a provision for one?

1. Yes, in a disconnected mode. See the "D" design on the Airos.
2. (answered already above)
3/4/5. None. All traction is in the engine. See "Siemens Charger"
6/7. Unknown.
8. One Panograph.
9. No provision for one.

ALC-42E has already an Inverter for HEP needs. So the APV shall not have an additional inverter for HEP. Power for the traction motors/HEP will come from the DC link between the APV and ALC42E. The APV with pan and transformer will also have two powered trucks, Amtrak has confirmed that.

So at least the APV will have 4 traction motors. The combined power from an Electric ICT( completely powered from the wires) wil be at least 7824 HP or 5832 kW excluding HEP load( up to 1 MW or 1000 kW).

When in Diesel mode the Engine will produce a max of 3100 kW including HEP load.

I wonder if in Dieselmode 1 locomotive is powerful enough for keeping up an 8 car train with max HEP load of 1 MW and
have only 2100 kW(2.817 HP) left for traction. Its means that the full 3.912 HP isn't there for traction.

So maybe a second ALC-42 is needed for diesel territory.

I appreciate the answers that have been provided so far to many of the questions I had about the ALC-42Es. But one question of mine yet to be answered is if the ALC-42Es can work in multiple with any other compatible loco. If so, could we see one or even two additional locos coupled to the front of a -42E to deal with heavy/high-HEP trains?

I believe that an 8 car Amfleet train only needed a 600 kW loco load that were on most P=42s.

west point wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 11:18 pm I believe that an 8 car Amfleet train only needed a 600 kW loco load that were on most P=42s.

During the Gunn admin the grand experiment of running the LSL with a single P42 and 10 to 12 cars was done. While a single 42 could handle such a train it was the acceleration out of station stops and speed restrictions where you really noticed the lack of H.P.. I would say the same if the new dual mode Yugo only has 2800 ish H.P. with 8 cars your going to struggle on something like the Hudson to go from 90 to 80 back to 90. It will become a Ron Popeil train, set it at 80 and forget it.
Too many trips with a single dual mode and 7 or more cars they just cant get out of their way.

I've decided to create a dedicated topic for the ALC-42E: alc-42e-acquisition-and-planned-operation-t176623.html

Railjunkie wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 10:01 am

west point wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 11:18 pm I believe that an 8 car Amfleet train only needed a 600 kW loco load that were on most P=42s.

During the Gunn admin the grand experiment of running the LSL with a single P42 and 10 to 12 cars was done. While a single 42 could handle such a train it was the acceleration out of station stops and speed restrictions where you really noticed the lack of H.P.. I would say the same if the new dual mode Yugo only has 2800 ish H.P. with 8 cars your going to struggle on something like the Hudson to go from 90 to 80 back to 90. It will become a Ron Popeil train, set it at 80 and forget it.
Too many trips with a single dual mode and 7 or more cars they just cant get out of their way.

Semi related, does anyone know if brightline uses both locomotives at the same time? If the charger plus powered tender are both providing tractive effort, it could negate the effects.
Assuming that both are reliable.

scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 12:00 pm
Semi related, does anyone know if brightline uses both locomotives at the same time? If the charger plus powered tender are both providing tractive effort, it could negate the effects.
Assuming that both are reliable.

Good question. When I saw one departing West Palm Beach this past weekend it sure sounded like the rear unit was doing most of the work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qNaey5eUJc&t=708s

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 11:24 am I've decided to create a dedicated topic for the ALC-42E: alc-42e-acquisition-and-planned-operation-t176623.html

You could easily move half the posts from the last year or so there, since they have little to do with the "growing pains" around the locomotives....

Railjunkie wrote: ↑Thu Feb 08, 2024 10:01 am
During the Gunn admin the grand experiment of running the LSL with a single P42 and 10 to 12 cars was done. While a single 42 could handle such a train it was the acceleration out of station stops and speed restrictions where you really noticed the lack of H.P.. I

Interesting as Metra runs 10+ car trains with one F40 and accel ramps on commuter trains are critical.

Also does the P42 draw HEP off the main engine/gen in any way? I thougth it was inverter, which still has some draw even thought it's not a screamer. I often advocate for a HEP van for many reasons and this is another - the HEP van is not a locomotive in FRA definition, so not subject to as rigorous of inspection schedules nor construction requirements. Ergo still cheaper than two engines.

Along with the fact the F40 is a 2 stroke vs a 4 stroke for the P42. Think gas guzzling 8 cylinder vs a sipping 4. You crack the throttle on a 40 its right there on a 42 it has to think about it.

RandallW wrote: ↑Fri Feb 09, 2024 5:36 am Metra's F40s do not draw HEP off the prime mover, but carry a separate generator, while Amtrak's F40s and P42s draw HEP from the prime mover. I understand it's a trade off between available horsepower and maintenance costs.

Metra's F40's do indeed have crankshaft-driven HEP which is why they call them screamers. I lived there for years and walked past them at the north end of the north concourse in CUS where they were very loud. Perhaps you are thinking of the MP36, some of which are pony motor-driven and some are inverter driven HEP.

Turns out the P42 can use a traction inverter to power HEP in stations, but when pulling the train the HEP draws off the alternator and the engine must run at 900rpm.