The Maine Central Railroad Mountain Division

I so wish I could come out there for that, but I don't even live in Maine at this time.
I wish you guys luck! I'd personally like to see this corridor restored and put to good use.

If anyone is interested in the public outreach component of this effort, please contact me at [email protected]. Our Route 113 Corridor Committee does not include the towns east of Standish, so we are looking for rail champions to come out to public meetings in support of this project.

Perhaps you could give some justification to support a $4 million expenditure on a line that (a) will serve no customers and (b) will connect to a defunct line that repeated market studies have shown has essentially zero chance of economic success.

Cowford wrote:

If anyone is interested in the public outreach component of this effort, please contact me at [email protected]. Our Route 113 Corridor Committee does not include the towns east of Standish, so we are looking for rail champions to come out to public meetings in support of this project.

Perhaps you could give some justification to support a $4 million expenditure on a line that (a) will serve no customers and (b) will connect to a defunct line that repeated market studies have shown has essentially zero chance of economic success.

The bond money was approved by both halves of the State legislature and then ratified via direct referendum from the citizens of Maine. That's the only justification needed; everyone said "do this".

I will have to respectfully disagree with Cowford. The HNTB study completed in 2007 does illustrate that a short line operation could be modestly profitable. Aggregates, propane, and oil are still in the mix of potential commodities. Since the report was completed, however, a couple of other businesses have emerged that want to start up operations next to the line, including two pellet plants and a water bottling operation (no, NOT Poland Spring). Two of these operations are being developed by young engineers whose families have property along the line. Their projected output dwarfs what was outlined in the HNTB study.

The excursion potential of the line is outlined in the TIGER grant. But we think the commuter potential is vastly underestimated. It is tough to ignore what is going on on both sides of the lake: a $1 million study for a Turnpike connector that is basically saying 75% of all inmigration to Maine will come to this part of York and Cumberland counties; and a feasibility study for a bus from Portland to Bridgton. Both of these projects could benefit from rapid transit on the Mountain Division: from downtown Westbrook, a spur on the old Portland and Rochester could bring commuters and USM students to Gorham; and from South Windham, a bus could bring commuters up Route 302 to Bridgton. Also, consider that the Gorham Bypass cost $6 million dollars a mile and did not create a single new job beyond construction. The money directed at the Mountain Division must be considered in the context of these parrallel initiatives.

Thanks, Cosmo. I'll be glad to post news about the project as it develops.

I agree - this rainbow and lollipops thing is ridiculous.

Huh,... seems to have changed back all on it's own.
Gotta admit, it had me wondering,...
till I saw the Conway Scenic thread!

I still hope this project goes through and I wish the Corridor Committee the best of success!

The HNTB study completed in 2007 does illustrate that a short line operation could be modestly profitable. Aggregates, propane, and oil are still in the mix of potential commodities.

gpcog, this is an excerpt from the HNTB study (pg E-5):

"Based on this exercise and an understanding of current rail freight business, we postulate that the Mountain Division could potentially serve several gravel pits and rock quarries located on and very close to the corridor... ...Other commodities such as cement, propane, building material and petroleum products have some small potential but not in sufficient volumes and likely not competitive with existing trucking services.

That makes it pretty clear: HNTB concluded that the chance of getting any business other than aggregates is slim to zero. (However, I'd be interested to hear more of the possible projects you refer to and how rail would make a play for them.) Which brings us back to what is touted as THE (only) viable revenue source for the line: Aggregates. Consider these points:

* The HNTB study states that "The aggregate operators would need to furnish their own rail cars"
* The HNTB study indicates that projected revenue would need to be $600 per car for line viability given the projected volumes.

In other words, shipper costs would be $6/net ton on the Mountain sub portion of the haul. Add an additional $3/NT+ for furtherance to any PAR destination, e.g., the former Cook's Concrete in Scarborough for offloading. Then add in the cost of the car (call it $3/NT)... it's going to cost a shipper ~$12/NT to move their product by rail. Now, go to the 2005 study entitled Mountain Division Rail Freight Study completed by your organization. The interview with the owner of Maietta Construction indicates that the rail cost would need to be below $3.50/NT in order to be competitive in the Portland area. Let's say he was sandbagging a bit and that there's been a bit of inflation since that study... call the break even $6/NT. Perhaps I'm missing something, but how would rail have a snowball's chance in Hades with such a cost disparity?

I've never had (but wish I had) a sales negotiation go like this: Shipper: I can't afford more than $6/NT. Railroad: I understand. How about $12/NT, then? Shipper: It's a deal!

One thing that the HNTB must have forgotten to look at. A destination for the material from these pits and quarries. These are all locally owned and ship by truck locally. How are you going to get a hopper car full of grave to Joe Shmoes driveway or rip rap to the side of Camproad X by train? And if the material is only going to be hauled to Portland, why invest what is going to be atleast 20 Million dollars before they are done in the rails when you could put that into the highways and make it a better life for everyone in the area.

These pits and Quarries were active when Guilford owned the line and before them when MEC owned it. Nothing was shipped then. And the line was operational. This is a bunch of eyewash that somepeople are believing. The only way they got money for this line and will continue to get money for this line is to attach it to a referendum vote like they did this year. We need the roads fixed, so they know the voters won't turn that down.

So, the next time someone brings up potential suppliers on the line, ask them where the material is supposed to be going. I bet they haven't thought that far ahead yet.

miketrainnut wrote:One thing that the HNTB must have forgotten to look at. A destination for the material from these pits and quarries. These are all locally owned and ship by truck locally. How are you going to get a hopper car full of grave to Joe Shmoes driveway or rip rap to the side of Camproad X by train? And if the material is only going to be hauled to Portland, why invest what is going to be atleast 20 Million dollars before they are done in the rails when you could put that into the highways and make it a better life for everyone in the area.

.

Ask TILCON and P&W down here that question.
LOOK,
JUST because these guys only shipped locally in the past and do so now doesn't mean they''re not looking to EXPAND!
P&W sends HUGE shipments from it's quarries in CT all the way down to LONG ISLAND. Maybe these guys figgure they can do MORE with rail that what they have in the past and what they do now.


But OH, NO,...
you guys are right! The business will NEVER expand, it'll just stay where it is and do the same thing with or without rail because YOU GUYS SAY SO.

you guys are right!

Thanks for acknowledging Cosmo, but if by chance you were being facetious, possibly you could address the concerns presented by me and Miketrainnut: (A)The projected cost to move by rail to the Portland market (the first logical market expansion) is more than double what is documented as economically feasible, and (B) in consideration that a railhead is needed on BOTH ends of a rail move (and that a railhead's proximity to the consumption area can drastically affect economics), to where exactly would all this aggregate be going?

Cowford wrote:

you guys are right!

Thanks for acknowledging Cosmo, but if by chance you were being facetious, possibly you could address the concerns presented by me and Miketrainnut: (A)The projected cost to move by rail to the Portland market (the first logical market expansion) is more than double what is documented as economically feasible, and (B) in consideration that a railhead is needed on BOTH ends of a rail move (and that a railhead's proximity to the consumption area can drastically affect economics), to where exactly would all this aggregate be going?

There are other markets besides Portland.
Rail access would make markets otherwise only reachable by truck more economically feasible. Look at what's going on up at Rock Of Ages in VT. THOSE aggregates are going WAY out of state!
But I guess your report pretty much says there's no market for anything FROM Maine outside of Maine.

Rail access would make markets otherwise only reachable by truck more economically feasible.

Maybe... maybe not. Again, which markets? If Boston, do you think Boston Sand & Gravel will let the gravel guys in western Maine simply bust into the Boston market? Who do you think would have the market advantage - the new guy on the block with no infrastructure, disadvantageous geographic location and higher transportation costs, or BSG? If and when BSG's NH pit is exhausted, then it MAY be another story. Maybe.

But I guess your report...

PS:Please note that the market studies referenced are not mine; they are publicly available studies written for governmental agencies, those being MDOT and Greater Portland Council of Governments. They're great reading. Especially the latest (MDOT's TIGER grant application) which is especially amusing in that of all the letters of support the state attached to the grant application, NOT ONE was from a potential rail shipper or railroad. If these guys are clamoring for new ways to extend their marketing reach, don't you find that a bit odd?

PPS: The VT move is granite "scrap," not construction aggregate.

One more thing, some of these pits have almost payed out. Wheather they reached the property line, or too close to water or what ever, they have been shut down. There is one fairly new operation located in Hiram that is a quarry with a little sand also. But without years worth of mining rights this one quarry could close soon too. I don't believe the rock is the quality that is needed for cement specs.

Ahh, that makes more sense now. Yeah, if they don't have the product, the market is (as Archie Bunker would say,) "irrevelant!"