The Get Philly Moving Plan

New York would have had a comparible sized system of that magnitude today had it not been for Mayor LaGuardia's anti-trolley policies in the late 1930s and the closing of the IRT/BMT els in the 1940s and 1950s.

This certainly is thinking "Outside the Box".

And I thought my fantasy suggestions - some of which I've created to make light of other's serious proposals - were over the top. This "takes the cake", however.

Though I must admit that, in comparison, the plan suggested by this map is similar in scale and scope to that intended by the Ministry of Transport for the Montreal Metro in 1967.

R36 Combine Coach wrote:New York would have had a comparible sized system of that magnitude today had it not been for Mayor LaGuardia's anti-trolley policies in the late 1930s and the closing of the IRT/BMT els in the 1940s and 1950s.

What condition were those IRT/BMT els? My sketchy understanding of New York elevated lines, as opposed to elevated portions of subway lines, were that they weren't strong enough to carry the relatively heavy cars that were standard for the subway lines, and so needed their own separate light weight equipment.
If my impression is correct I'm not saying that they shouldn't have rebuilt or reinforced them to handle heavier equipment, but if they had originally been lightly built in the late 1800's maybe they were in danger of falling down on their own by the mid 1900's.

By comparison, I remember reading in Harold Cox's 'The Road to Upper Darby' that the Frankford El was cheap construction compared to the Market St el, a statement borne out by the fact that we rebuilt the newer 1920's Frankford El in the late 1980's but didn't rebuild the older 1907 Market St el until later, both projects seeming to take 50 years each.

And anybody who talks about sending the Broad St subway under the Delaware to National Park-Gloucester lacks ambition. I won't consider you a serious visionary unless your map shows the Cape May-San Juan tunnel.

Nice work, but I'd split it to separate regional rail and transit maps. That one's quite busy.

Few suggestions after quick glance:
-Extend the R-2 to Elkton, MD
-Split Newtown to Newtown Township/PA 413/PA332 and Newtown Borough
-Paper Mill on Newtown R-8
-Forest Grove Rd. on R-2 New Hope should be "Wycombe", I would add Rushland (Sackettsford Rd.) and stations near Durham Rd/413 and Street Rd or Aquetong Rd for park and ride possibilities. Maybe go nuts and bridge into Lambertville, NJ.
-Scranton maybe?
-Harrisburg maybe?
-Phillipsburg, NJ maybe?
-Cheltenham-Neshaminy Falls
-P&W to Strafford
-Swampoodle?

Where was Janney on the R-3 WT?

gardendance wrote:
And anybody who talks about sending the Broad St subway under the Delaware to National Park-Gloucester lacks ambition. I won't consider you a serious visionary unless your map shows the Cape May-San Juan tunnel.

Septa was going to do this, but then realized they'd need bathrooms in the cars, and that was a deal breaker.

This is an interesting fantasy. A bit of redundancy, but why not. But how would it be paid for? We are dealing with people who don't want to by police cars and fire trucks, much less build any kind of transit system.

That's an interesting exercise in drawing lines on a map, but if you're going to do a 'dream big' plan that has more than a minimal hope of being implemented (even in part--sometimes history works out such that one or two lines from such a plan get built even if the whole thing doesn't), you have to be thinking in more than just two dimensions.

First, you need to pay attention to the lay of the land and other physical constraints. Cheltenham Ave (which is where I guess you're putting the "Ogontz-Cheltenham" alignment) has a very steep hill between Willow Grove Ave and Paper Mill Rd. You've also got constructability to worry about, which is why wide streets (e.g. 38th) would be more attractive than narrower ones (e.g. 40th)

Second, you need to create lines to serve travel markets, not just because there aren't any other lines nearby or because there's a right of way there. One thing you might do is look at current SEPTA ridership by line to see where (particularly in the city) travel is heaviest.

And I suspect some of the proposed stops are too close together--there's a trade-off between accessibility and both construction cost and running time.

Fleshing out the loop is a good thought exercise and discussion starter, though. I'd also consider extending that out further west (maybe 38th) because of the growth of employment out there.

Thanks for all your comments! I really appreciate the feedback.

SCB2525 wrote:Nice work, but I'd split it to separate regional rail and transit maps. That one's quite busy.

Few suggestions after quick glance:
-Extend the R-2 to Elkton, MD
-Split Newtown to Newtown Township/PA 413/PA332 and Newtown Borough
-Paper Mill on Newtown R-8
-Forest Grove Rd. on R-2 New Hope should be "Wycombe", I would add Rushland (Sackettsford Rd.) and stations near Durham Rd/413 and Street Rd or Aquetong Rd for park and ride possibilities. Maybe go nuts and bridge into Lambertville, NJ.
-Scranton maybe?
-Harrisburg maybe?
-Phillipsburg, NJ maybe?
-Cheltenham-Neshaminy Falls
-P&W to Strafford
-Swampoodle?

Agreed on extending the R2 to Elkton; Re: the Newtown branch, I'm not sure two stops are needed in Newtown and Paper Mill is too close to Huntingdon Valley and Bryn Athyn to necessitate a stop; agreed on the suggestions for the R2 (and Lambertville would be a nice connection). As for all the other suggestions, I think they should all be built/brought back, but are not in urgent need of restoration.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:That's an interesting exercise in drawing lines on a map, but if you're going to do a 'dream big' plan that has more than a minimal hope of being implemented (even in part--sometimes history works out such that one or two lines from such a plan get built even if the whole thing doesn't), you have to be thinking in more than just two dimensions.

First, you need to pay attention to the lay of the land and other physical constraints. Cheltenham Ave (which is where I guess you're putting the "Ogontz-Cheltenham" alignment) has a very steep hill between Willow Grove Ave and Paper Mill Rd. You've also got constructability to worry about, which is why wide streets (e.g. 38th) would be more attractive than narrower ones (e.g. 40th)

Agreed. I did this to the best of my ability, as I am presently out of town and could only research so much about the layout of certain areas. If I have missed something and you have alternative ideas or alignments, I would really appreciate suggestions (though in the case of Cheltenham, I'm less worried about construction and more worried about the residents not wanting it).

Matthew Mitchell wrote:Second, you need to create lines to serve travel markets, not just because there aren't any other lines nearby or because there's a right of way there. One thing you might do is look at current SEPTA ridership by line to see where (particularly in the city) travel is heaviest.

I did look into bus routes that were the busiest in operation. Several of the lines on the map (Bustleton, 5th-Passyunk, and others) exist for that very reason. Regardless though, that doesn't mean that areas lacking rapid transit should be neglected. I understand ridership is important, but so is connectivity, convenience, and reliability.

Take Andorra for example. It's not the densest part of the region. You could make an argument that it does not need a subway. Commuter X from Andorra might take the bus into town if he/she has no choice, but if he/she despises the bus (as many people do unfortunately) and doesn't want to pay to ride the R6 (or drive to it), then that person will more than likely drive into town.

Now let's insert the Parkway-Ridge Line into this scenario. Commuter X from Andorra now has the option of a less expensive, reliable, fast, and connected (one-seat rides to Manayunk, Roxborough, the Art Museum, Center City, South Philly, and much more) rapid transit line to get to town. And if you add in the connections from the other lines...you see where this is going. The more connected, the more people will ride.

Part of the reason the subway system is so successful in New York (aside from the high density, geography, and more) is because it's simply more convenient to take the subway in New York than drive (in most cases). This presently is not the case in much of the Philadelphia area and the Delaware Valley. It needs to be rectified; that's how you attract riders. Then of course there's the typical challenges of improving safety, maintenance, etc.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:And I suspect some of the proposed stops are too close together--there's a trade-off between accessibility and both construction cost and running time.

You could be right about some of the stops. Care to elaborate on which ones stuck out to you?

Matthew Mitchell wrote:Fleshing out the loop is a good thought exercise and discussion starter, though. I'd also consider extending that out further west (maybe 38th) because of the growth of employment out there.

It's not a bad idea, but I don't see any reason why the loop should go beyond 30th Street/University City. Plus, those areas around Penn are already well-served by the MFL, Regional Rail, the subway-surface trolleys (both existing and the ones proposed on the map), and buses.

Agree that line to Roxborough and Andorra is a great example of how a line could really boost ridership. The 9 and 27 are express buses from those neighborhoods and could be replaced by a subway line that ran under ridge or henry to the city line. There are many apartments and dense blocks of housing in roxborough and the entire width of that area is generally six blocks max to ridge making walking a strong alternative. Andorra Shopping Center is always busy and could even benefit from additional TOD development.

Phil O. wrote:Re: the Newtown branch, I'm not sure two stops are needed in Newtown and Paper Mill is too close to Huntingdon Valley and Bryn Athyn to necessitate a stop.

If the line were ever to come back, two Netwown stations is likely how it would go. Similarly to the R-6 where Main St. is the more important station while Elm St. is a smaller walk-up that happens to be the terminal station; a station would likely be build at the Newtown Bypass because of the accessibility and room available for parking and the original station in Newtown Borough would be the lesser legacy station (SEPTA would probably not even bother extending back to this point actually, sad as that is). Paper Mill is more fantasy because NIMBYs would never allow it back but logistically there's much more space for a park and ride than Huntingdon or Bryn Athyn.

Phil O. wrote:Re: the Newtown branch, I'm not sure two stops are needed in Newtown and Paper Mill is too close to Huntingdon Valley and Bryn Athyn to necessitate a stop.

If the line were ever to come back, two Netwown stations is likely how it would go. Similarly to the R-6 where Main St. is the more important station while Elm St. is a smaller walk-up that happens to be the terminal station; a station would likely be build at the Newtown Bypass because of the accessibility and room available for parking and the original station in Newtown Borough would be the lesser legacy station (SEPTA would probably not even bother extending back to this point actually, sad as that is). Paper Mill is more fantasy because NIMBYs would never allow it back but logistically there's much more space for a park and ride than Huntingdon or Bryn Athyn.

Also, I think a reactivation of the Fort Washington branch should be investigated (I'm sure it could run along side 309 if there was the will) to provide connection between Chestnut Hill and the reactivated Trenton Cutoff/Cross County Metro. Stations would be Germantown Ave, Stenton Ave, (these could potentially be combined into a transfer station with the R-7 there, but I question the necessity), Wyndmoor/Cheltenham Ave, Laverock/Willow Grove Rd., Flourtown/Paper Mill Rd., Whitemarsh/Valley Green Rd. (Maybe to close to the following), A combined Ft.Wash branch/CCM/R-5 Lansdale station at/near the former Fort Hill Station

Also, I'd like to see the Octoraro Branch extended down to wherever you think is viable (Oxford? Some lower connection with MARC?).

SCB2525 wrote:Nice work, but I'd split it to separate regional rail and transit maps. That one's quite busy.

Few suggestions after quick glance:
-Extend the R-2 to Elkton, MD
-Split Newtown to Newtown Township/PA 413/PA332 and Newtown Borough
-Paper Mill on Newtown R-8
-Forest Grove Rd. on R-2 New Hope should be "Wycombe", I would add Rushland (Sackettsford Rd.) and stations near Durham Rd/413 and Street Rd or Aquetong Rd for park and ride possibilities. Maybe go nuts and bridge into Lambertville, NJ.
-Scranton maybe?
-Harrisburg maybe?
-Phillipsburg, NJ maybe?
-Cheltenham-Neshaminy Falls
-P&W to Strafford
-Swampoodle?

Where was Janney on the R-3 WT?

PA already funds a service to Harrisburg, though in the long run, when higher speed regional trains run to pittsburgh, there's probably room for a local and regional (and maybe express) service along the line.
As for elkton, other than filling the much talked about "gap," is there really demand there? Delaware pays for the spotty service to Newark as is. who would pay for this? If you're goin got baltimore from philly, you're far better off on megabus.

as for roxborough, I'd think an express bus or even light rail to 22nd and hunting park would suffice.

Suburban Station wrote: As for elkton, other than filling the much talked about "gap," is there really demand there? Delaware pays for the spotty service to Newark as is. who would pay for this? If you're goin got baltimore from philly, you're far better off on megabus.

Amtrak does a great ride to Baltimore. They get there, in the same amount of Time SEPTA will get you to Wilmington. I suppose its more expensive than bolt bus though. Part of the reason the ride is so fast, is that there's no stops between Wilmington and Baltimore (occasionally Aberdeen). Which is because there are no large commuter centers here. Yes I have a friend who commutes from Elkins Park to Elkton MD every day, an hour+ each way. He would not be taking a 2-3 hour train ride across multiple lines. And I have to question how much SEPTA cares about Cecil county residents commuting to jobs in Wilmington.

I met a poor soul at Melrose Park station one day that DID commute from Newark. His biggest complaint was the limited schedule. There was one combination of trains in the morning, and one in the afternoon, which still only left him a short lunch break. Don't bother extending the line to Elkton, until you can do at least hourly service from 5AM to 11PM, including weekends. (Roughly the service level of Doylestown or West Trenton).

I suppose none of the lines are worth it if you can't run a decent schedule of trains. I've never Ridden MARC because its pretty much only peak trains into and out of DC, and no weekend service. Maybe an overlap with MARC would work, with their trains terminating in Newark or Wilmington, ideally simultaneously to the SEPTA train, to facilitate transfers, while also offering the opportunity of a one seat ride from PHL to Wilmington and Newark, and one seat rides from Baltimore to Wilmington and Newark.

Now that I'm clearly in fantasy land, lets talk about how the MARC/SEPTA partnership will let us ride to the Eagle's Superbowl victory parade...

MelroseMatt wrote:

Suburban Station wrote: As for elkton, other than filling the much talked about "gap," is there really demand there? Delaware pays for the spotty service to Newark as is. who would pay for this? If you're goin got baltimore from philly, you're far better off on megabus.

Amtrak does a great ride to Baltimore. They get there, in the same amount of Time SEPTA will get you to Wilmington. I suppose its more expensive than bolt bus though. Part of the reason the ride is so fast, is that there's no stops between Wilmington and Baltimore (occasionally Aberdeen). Which is because there are no large commuter centers here. Yes I have a friend who commutes from Elkins Park to Elkton MD every day, an hour+ each way. He would not be taking a 2-3 hour train ride across multiple lines. And I have to question how much SEPTA cares about Cecil county residents commuting to jobs in Wilmington.

I met a poor soul at Melrose Park station one day that DID commute from Newark. His biggest complaint was the limited schedule. There was one combination of trains in the morning, and one in the afternoon, which still only left him a short lunch break. Don't bother extending the line to Elkton, until you can do at least hourly service from 5AM to 11PM, including weekends. (Roughly the service level of Doylestown or West Trenton).

I suppose none of the lines are worth it if you can't run a decent schedule of trains. I've never Ridden MARC because its pretty much only peak trains into and out of DC, and no weekend service. Maybe an overlap with MARC would work, with their trains terminating in Newark or Wilmington, ideally simultaneously to the SEPTA train, to facilitate transfers, while also offering the opportunity of a one seat ride from PHL to Wilmington and Newark, and one seat rides from Baltimore to Wilmington and Newark.

Now that I'm clearly in fantasy land, lets talk about how the MARC/SEPTA partnership will let us ride to the Eagle's Superbowl victory parade...

SEPTA service to Elkton depends on how much DelDOT is willing to pay for such service. After all, they pay for SEPTA service to Wilmington and Newark. Until then, DART First State's route 65, from Elkton to Newark, will have to suffice for now. Is Elkton a bustling town/city, or is it primarily a bedroom community?