The 470 Railroad Club (Equipment and Activities)

As it is now our equipment, I felt it would be best to post this here than in the NHN or Conway Scenic forums... It is official, we have purchased NHN GP-9 1757. I have been mum on this at the direction of the club president. We will be allowing CSRX to use this unit as is for the time being, but it will eventually be the donor for 4268. We will be at most painting out the NHN reporting marks, but no more as there's no point in wasting money painting a carbody that will eventually be scrqapped.

As a lot of the questions were in the other forums and I don't feel like going back to look at them, feel free to fire away.

Eric

I guess I will start, as this is the one and only forum that I will ever post in again......

------NHN 1757.....am I correct to assume that there will be a delay in the facelift of 4268 now until 1757 gets to Conway?

It doesnt make much sense to continue with a static reconstruction if she is to be donated into....

------4266.....will there be a complete rebuild on 4266 now as well, including panel replacement and paint so that there are 2 correctly

operating F7A's? Maybe a block rebuild, etc?

------Which piece(s) of equipment is going in for paint this winter?

------Where can 501 fit into a rebuild of some sort besides static display? My thought.....if Valley Railroad can rebuild a 2-8-2 from

essentially a boiler than why can't we (and I say that as I am a member, in good standing) rebuild 501 as all the parts are there?

I think that there is a call for steam, especially in New England and that leaving her sitting is remissant

Reader#108 wrote:Where can 501 fit into a rebuild of some sort besides static display? My thought.....if Valley Railroad can rebuild a 2-8-2 from essentially a boiler than why can't we (and I say that as I am a member, in good standing) rebuild 501 as all the parts are there? I think that there is a call for steam, especially in New England and that leaving her sitting is remissant

Here Here! By the way, not only do I agree with Reader on this, but I would also like to throw out that it won't cost the millions of dollars to do that some have claimed. J David Conrad said in a post from another location that it looked like the project was going to come in just under $530,000.00 which is under budget. #501 doesn't look quite as burned up to me.....

Reader#108 wrote:I guess I will start, as this is the one and only forum that I will ever post in again......

------NHN 1757.....am I correct to assume that there will be a delay in the facelift of 4268 now until 1757 gets to Conway?

It doesnt make much sense to continue with a static reconstruction if she is to be donated into....

------4266.....will there be a complete rebuild on 4266 now as well, including panel replacement and paint so that there are 2 correctly

operating F7A's? Maybe a block rebuild, etc?

------Which piece(s) of equipment is going in for paint this winter?

------Where can 501 fit into a rebuild of some sort besides static display? My thought.....if Valley Railroad can rebuild a 2-8-2 from

essentially a boiler than why can't we (and I say that as I am a member, in good standing) rebuild 501 as all the parts are there?

I think that there is a call for steam, especially in New England and that leaving her sitting is remissant

1.As for 4268's "Face Lift", no, no delay (other than fundraising) as panels and paint won't hamper the eventual transition, not to mention by getting it spiffed up, we're being good stewards to our landlord.
2.Other than some minor body work and paint (including painting the trucks black), no major work will be done to 4266. 4266 already was upgraded to a BC block, so there isn't a need to do that. If anything, it could really use some electrical work, but that's big money.
3.We hope that 4268 will be going in, but that is at Conway's discretion.
4. No where. She sits where is, as is, with the exception that the siderods will be reinstalled next year. We don't want the liability, don't have a cool half million lying around, and no where to run it if it was operable.

Eric

I know I am beating my head against a wall here....

but now #21 is running at Edaville.....501 is the best candidate for restoration in New England as of this minute.

It is a tough pill to swallow to sit and watch these other roads, especially one that was for sale until 3 months ago

COMPLETELY rebuild from a oil burner to a coal burner and then make her run.......and to watch a fabulous man and

his staff rebuild a burned out hulk to the gorgeous 3025, and now have 2 operational locomotives and one on its 1472.

Can you tell me Eric, how I can personally help the 470 get this locomotive running again. All of the parts are there.

There is enough recent info that she is an excellent candidate for resurrection. I AND SOME OF MY FRIENDS WANT TO HELP.

PLEASE TELL US HOW WE CAN

Reader#108 wrote:I know I am beating my head against a wall here....but now #21 is running at Edaville.....501 is the best candidate for restoration in New England as of this minute. It is a tough pill to swallow to sit and watch these other roads, especially one that was for sale until 3 months ago COMPLETELY rebuild from a oil burner to a coal burner and then make her run.......and to watch a fabulous man and his staff rebuild a burned out hulk to the gorgeous 3025, and now have 2 operational locomotives and one on its 1472. Can you tell me Eric, how I can personally help the 470 get this locomotive running again. All of the parts are there. There is enough recent info that she is an excellent candidate for resurrection. I AND SOME OF MY FRIENDS WANT TO HELP. PLEASE TELL US HOW WE CAN

Bill,
You're hitting the nail right on the head, and believe me, I would be there to help you out with #501 in a heart beat....but, and I do stress but....lets look at this for a second. The valley railroad has the personell and equipment to tackle a restoration like that....they have a shop that they own, and organic assets that allow them to complete it, not to mention a mobilized and very effective friends group who helped in the restoration. CSRX doesn't have any of this, and not to mention that 501 isn't even under cover....and there isn't any effort being made to get her under cover. Some one will come on here and say "but this or but that" but how long has she been there out in the elements? Look how long it took just to get paint on her.
The people at the helm are going to money you to death with it. They are going to say "we don't have the money" and they don't now. They are spending tens of thousands of dollars basically rebuilding 4268 from scratch. They don't care about, want, need, like, or appreciate steam. If they did, they would be putting in for one of the many preservation or restoration grants out there. I have never once seen the 470 in the lists of applicants for the #501. Right from the "horse's mouth"

"We don't want the liability, don't have a cool half million lying around, and no where to run it if it was operable."

The liability is no more than running any of the other historic equipment, can't be that bad (and working in a steam program I know it isn't) if you have 2 railroads adding steam this year and in terms of running no place to run it?
Eastern Maine Railway
Maine Eastern Railroad
Downeast Scenic
Montreal, Maine and Atlantic Railway
New Hampshire Northcoast Corporation
Pan Am Railways
St. Lawrence and Atlantic Railroad
Claremont Concord Railroad
Green Mountain Railroad (has had steam on it)
Milford-Bennington Railroad Company Inc.
New England Central Railroad
New England Southern Railroad
New Hampshire Central Railroad
New Hampshire Northcoast Corporation
Hobo Railroad
Winnipesaukee Scenic Railroad
Clarendon and Pittsford Railroad (Has had steam on it)
Green Mountain Railroad (has had steam on it)
Vermont Railway (Has had steam on it)
Washington County Railroad
Bay Colony Railroad
Connecticut Southern Railroad
CSX Transportation
East Brookfield and Spencer Railroad
Fore River Transportation Corporation
Grafton and Upton Railroad
Housatonic Railroad
Massachusetts Central Railroad
Massachusetts Coastal Railroad
Pioneer Valley Railroad
Providence and Worcester Railroad
Berkshire Scenic Railway
Cape Cod Central Railroad

Sure looks to me like there are plenty of places to run it....lets call a spade a spade....you all are just dead set on seeing the 501 rust to the rails while you waste money on Frankinstein locomotives....you don't have a place to work on it either, the manpower to fix, and are beholding to someone else to run...who by the way got rid of their F-7s because they are "underpowered and lack the dynamic brakes that we need". So where you going to run the Frankinstein? Seems to me like you have the same problem with that. If you want to see steam in Northern New England Bill, don't waste your breath or time with the #501....until the governing body changes it's mind...501 will just sit there ouside, not getting any real sustainment work, rusting to the rails.

Steamer, dude, get a GRIP!
More than HALF of the railroads you mention could never support running a restored 501 and have ABSOLUTELY NO historical connection to the MEC.
I agree that neither CSRX nor the 470 group have the organic resources to complete the project, but how is getting a few piddly grant dollars (usually in the hundreds, or the rare thousand or so,) going to suddenly, magically put them on a par with VRR?

Cosmo wrote:Steamer, dude, get a GRIP!
More than HALF of the railroads you mention could never support running a restored 501 and have ABSOLUTELY NO historical connection to the MEC.

You're right Pete....sorry, but I am just so sick of the foaming excuses. The point that I was trying to make is that there are plenty of other properties that could support not only #501, but other 470 equipment....and probobly take better care of it too. I get the fact that people want to see it on it's "home rails" if they can, but not at the expense of the equipement. And as far as most of the other properties having "ABSOLUTELY NO hisotrical connection to the MEC", can you tell me what the historical connection is between the Birmingham & Southeastern Railway (Valley #97), Aberdeen & Rockfish (Valley #40), and China Railways...I know it was built for export...(now NH #3025) is to the New Haven line that they are running on now? And still you guys down there take pride in them, take care of them, run them, maintain them, and PRESERVE them. Just because (for example) a MEC locomotive runs on CV track, makes no difference if people take care of it. The people and the area in which it runs makes the engine....NOT the orriginal name of it.

Cosmo wrote:I agree that neither CSRX nor the 470 group have the organic resources to complete the project, but how is getting a few piddly grant dollars (usually in the hundreds, or the rare thousand or so,) going to suddenly, magically put them on a par with VRR?

It's not....but at least there would be an attempt made to shelter or take care of the locomotive. If they really wanted to start building a core group of members and volunteers to take care of the equipment it would be a great place to start. I mean take Reader#108 for example, there you have a 470 member begging to help...begging. If you were in charge of the 470 Pete wouldn't you at least reconcider when you already have tens of thousands of dollars worth of parts just sitting there waiting to be put on?

Sorry Pete....you're right....but maybe I'm not the only one who needs to get a grip.....

Not to start a flame war, but I think this is a legitimate question and I know I'm not the only one who has wondered about it: does anyone else find it peculiar that the 470 Railroad Club has in recent history turned its back on several potential Maine Central acquisitions/restorations, in favor of Boston & Maine projects such as 4266 and 4268? To wit: Maine Central locomotives 404, 407, 470, 564, 567, 568, 592*... any one of these would have been a golden opportunity to preserve a piece of Maine Central history, and with the exception of 470 which belongs to the city of Waterville, all were available at bargain basement prices. I know "the economy is bad" and whatnot, but the coffers can't be completely empty if they're buying an NHN GP9.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the true nature of the group. I just assumed that since they're named after a Maine Central locomotive, that the Maine Central was their focus. My bad? I grew up next to the B&M so it doesn't bother me at all to see 4266 and 4268 get some much-needed TLC; on the other hand, it makes me very sad to see so much Maine Central history disappearing, and no formal group or organization to advocate on behalf of MEC history/preservation.

Just wondering, not trying to start anything.


*592 wasn't built for MEC, but MEC did own it for a while before they were purchased by Guilford.

BINGO!

See my point? My grip (or gripe) seems to be agreed on by more than just me.....

ericofmaine wrote:...it will eventually be the donor for 4268

Eric,

Thanks so much for the update! While I am VERY excited that 4268 has a donor (Can't wait to see the B&M pair together!!!!!) it's always sad to see a great loco scrapped. Ah, nature of the biz though, right? One will sacrifice for the other!

Thanks for keeping us updated!

Any idea of a timeframe for the transition to 4268? I know, probably too early for that....just excited!

Thanks!

What donors (the human kind, with checkbooks) are interested in has a large role in setting priorities for restoration at every RR/trolley museum which says anything publicly about the subject (Seashore is quite open about it, as is the Keighley & Worth Valley in the UK), so they probably do at the 470 Club too. And 4268 is more attractive than many potential new acquisitions because it's already at a site which has track for it.

I am a 470 member and I would like to see 501 run again, but there's no point in it till it has a place to run. Year-end giving time approaches, so perhaps I should see if they would accept a restricted donation towards protection, paint and possibly a roof over it.

Steamer, just to point it out, but the Providence hosted steam in the form of Valley Railroad 1647 back in 1992. The trips ran between Groton and Putnam, while the other ran between Worcester and I believe Old Saybrook, but I'm not positive on the Old Saybrook departure point.

drvmusic wrote:

ericofmaine wrote:...it will eventually be the donor for 4268

Eric,

Thanks so much for the update! While I am VERY excited that 4268 has a donor (Can't wait to see the B&M pair together!!!!!) it's always sad to see a great loco scrapped. Ah, nature of the biz though, right? One will sacrifice for the other!

Thanks for keeping us updated!

Any idea of a timeframe for the transition to 4268? I know, probably too early for that....just excited!

Thanks!

We've internally set a timeline for 5 years to have the transition done, although we'd certainly like to see it done sooner... as with everything else, money is the driving force.

As for the 501, we went through such a CF the first time, it has soured a LOT, if not everyone on the board, from ever wanting to do anything with it again. We decided to go the route we did so that at least if there was a want or need in the future, the restoring party would have something to restore. Better that it get some paint and other cosmetic work than meeting Mr. Scrapper, right?

As for all of the other "why didn't you save ...," We don't exactly have overflowing coffers, and the price we paid for the 1757 was too good a deal to pass up.

Finally, as for the list of places to run... sure, there's tracks there... good luck getting these places to agree to letting a steam engine run on these tracks, just given the liability alone. Let's not forget that one of 501's sisters blew up in the notch. I'll close with a quote I was once told by someone in the industry about steam engines: "How do make a million dollars with a steam engine? Start with ten million.

Eric

As far as Edaville they did not completley rebuild the 21 and VRRs 3025 was a complete loco diassembled in Kane Pa all the parts where there and the boiler was built in 89 and is all welded. so to compare those engines to one needing a full restoration is inacurate it cost 530,000 for 3025 to be rebuilt they had two machinists working full time on the running gear. The boiler didn't need any repairs just retube. has the 501 even been ultrasound? I had heard they had a boiler maker work on it and when it was hydroed it leaked horribley. Its nice to see excitement and people willing to preserve theses engines but it takes alot of money and you need the knowledgable people to perform the work. Or eslse your wasting money and time.