Silverliner V: Progress Reports

Head-end View wrote:But, I tell everybody here who will listen that LIRR and Metro-North are a class act compared to the commuter rail systems in other Northeast cities like Boston and Phili. LIRR for instance, has had all high platforms and cars with subway style quarterpoint doors, air-conditioning and automatic speed-control in all electrified territory since 1970 (!) And now has TVM's at every station.

New York is a different commuter market than any other city in the nation, because of the number of jobs in the CBD, the expense of commuting by car there, and the consequent distances people will travel daily by train. The numbers there can support a much larger investment in commuter rail than in Boston or Philly.

Matt,
I think the point of the last few posts should have been do doors without vestibules mess up passenger comfort in bad weather, and the conclusion is apparently not, based among other things on New York's example for several decades of running commuter trains without vestibules.

gardendance wrote:Matt,
I think the point of the last few posts should have been do doors without vestibules mess up passenger comfort in bad weather, and the conclusion is apparently not, based among other things on New York's example for several decades of running commuter trains without vestibules.

I know. Head End was comparing the New York roads to MBTA and SEPTA, which have a lot fewer passengers. And to bring this back to your topic, MNRR (or more precisely, its predecessors) and LIRR needed high platforms and quarter-point doors to accommodate their passenger levels, so the investment was essential, and could be spread over a lot more riders.

While the Metropolitans don't have vestibules, they do have partitions at the doors, so wind and rain don't get into the seating area when doors are open. And anyone who's ridden the Empire Corridor in winter knows vestibule cars aren't immune to snow!

One thing different about the Silverliner 5 vs the other vestibuleless trains I know of, the 5 has a trap for low level access at 1 leaf of each double door, and I suppose consequent slower passenger flow than at high level platforms. That might detract from the cars' heating-air conditioning capabilities.
However I don't see that the low level trap would make the passenger flow any slower than it is now, and lack of a vestibule might speed up the flow, even if it does no good for heating-air conditioning.

As Matt mentions, vestibule cars aren't immune to snow. When the vestibule door is open the vestibule's presence doesn't do much to help maintain interior temperature, whether the platform door's open or not.

The AC/Heating blower system on the SL 5's is probably designed to operate at a higher output pressure which will keep the cold or hot air out of the car when the doors are opened. As it was explained to me, HVAC systems designed for cars without vestibule end doors are all designed that way.

aem7 wrote:The AC/Heating blower system on the SL 5's is probably designed to operate at a higher output pressure which will keep the cold or hot air out of the car when the doors are opened. As it was explained to me, HVAC systems designed for cars without vestibule end doors are all designed that way.

This is exactly the same as the MFSE M4 cars. When the doors open, the air or heat operate at a higher output to offset the loss. It works pretty well. This is the only thing I cant complain about on the M4 cars.I dont feel as though the vestibule less SLv cars will be any different then the LIRR-MNRR cars and the M4 cars with extreme weather changes.Whether Septa's fabulous mechanics are able to keep the repairs going on the new cars will be the question. The HVAC guys on the RRD are actually very good capable bunch so I dont think that will be an issue as well.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

chuchubob wrote:Why Bombardier? Kawasaki won the original bid that was illegally awarded to Rotem.

Actually, Rotem was announced as the winner the first time around, which is why Kawasaki threatened to sue and have Rotem declared unqualified. The grounds for the action (I've seen the papers) was SEPTA illegally changing the qualification requirements without reopening the process. Initially, there was a requirement for bidders to have experience making FRA compliant stainless steel cars. Rotem lacked that experience, so SEPTA dropped that requirement in the middle of the process. Meanwhile several other builders didn't bid because they didn't meet the experience requirement. Had they known the requirement would be dropped, they might have competed.

Faced with a pretty solid case against them, SEPTA cancelled the contract award and started over with a new RFP, without any requirement for having built FRA cars. Rotem and Kawasaki were virtually equal on cost (Rotem was cheaper for the initial order, while Kawasaki was cheaper if you counted the option cars), while Kawasaki was far superior on technical qualifications (Rotem was worst of the four bidders). Citing their low bid on cost, SEPTA awarded the contract to Rotem.

Remember that if it weren't for those shenanigans, we'd probably have Silverliner Vs on the property by now.

Matt the irony of this whole problem that we are experiencing with the SLV delay is that Rotem is having a problem getting enough of the grade steel and stainless steel for the project and qualified people to do welding to American and FRA standards and these were the arguments on why Rotem was found to be unqualified for this project to begin with.I still have a glimmer of hope that Rotem will deliever a decent product but I wont hold my breathe. I wish Kawasaki had the contract but Im partial to the companyt anyways(except they are partially the reason Budd isnt around anymore but thats a different topic ) The problems that Rotem is having with the production cars were illustrated in an email by the BLET to me. I understand that the 1st 3 cars will have the half cab as originally designed butthe rest of the fleet will have the full width cab. After the 1st 3 cars arrive on the property and have the exhausting testing finished, the cars will be refitted with the full width cabs. Well thats all I have now. Take Care....

BuddSilverliner269 wrote:I still have a glimmer of hope that Rotem will deliever a decent product but I wont hold my breathe.

Heck, they were only slightly below Canada's favorite unofficial crown corporation in the technical rankings....

I wish Kawasaki had the contract but Im partial to the companyt anyways(except they are partially the reason Budd isnt around anymore but thats a different topic )

No, it was the above mentioned entity that is the reason - they undercut Budd on the R-62 order by a slight amount, and that was it for Budd. The NYCTA went through a nasty period with those cars - nothing worked. IIRC, they had to threaten to cancel the contract to get you-know-who to start making at least an acceptable product.

The problems that Rotem is having with the production cars were illustrated in an email by the BLET to me.

Does anyone know the actual nature of these 'welding issues'? i.e., are they cosmetic, are they not to spec, are they bad?

I'm not wild about Rotem either - the Koreans aren't really that great at making anything - but IMHO, they should at least be given a fair shake. If the cars turn out to be junk, that's what lawyers and lawsuits are for. And let's face it, even established builders have turned out a few turkeys recently, too. EMD's DM-30s are total junk, Kawasaki had a lot of issues with their recent MARC order, the Acelas haven't exactly lived up to their hype...

What I find more annoying is that it's pretty obvious that SEPTA was pushed into this order nlot because of price or technical aspects, but politics. Once you get politicians involved, things tend to become a cluster pretty quickly...

IMHO, Kawasaki or Sumitomo would have been better. I bet Siemens or Alstom would have done well, too. And if the specs weren't so rigid and backwards, who knows, maybe Stadler would have come up with one of their off the wall but very good solutions...

Actually Nasadowski, I was referring to Budds lost bid to the Broad Street Subway cars back in the 80's. Budd lost the bid by a small amount to Kawasaki(how much I dont know but many people I know in my family worked for Budd including my father for a bit was upset that the city turned there back on Budd) which in retrospect may not have been a horrible thing since the B4 cars on the BSS are faboulous cars. The Problem with Rotem is they are having quality problems on the welds. Im no welder so I dont know how different they have to be to make the FRA happy but the reports Im getting from the BLET at Septa is that the car bodies are buckling and warping. Its very possible that the problems can be fixed but this order is going on a year late now and I dont see any happy news in sight. I have heard by a few in the railroad world that Rotem isnt known for making great trains at all so all this has got really make one wonder?

Budd, if the carbodies are buckling and warping even before they've arrived on the property, then I have to agree with you that it's a serious issue. I just have a hard time believing that any manufacturer in the world could be in business at all if their welds couldn't hold together even before the product got to the buyer.

Are you saying that the buckling's happening when they test the cars at Rotem's plant? I think I remember you mentioned this several months ago. Are you sure this is still a current problem? How recent are the reports you get from the BLET at Septa ? Who else is making reports lke this?

gardendance wrote:Budd, if the carbodies are buckling and warping even before they've arrived on the property, then I have to agree with you that it's a serious issue. I just have a hard time believing that any manufacturer in the world could be in business at all if their welds couldn't hold together even before the product got to the buyer.

Are you saying that the buckling's happening when they test the cars at Rotem's plant? I think I remember you mentioned this several months ago. Are you sure this is still a current problem? How recent are the reports you get from the BLET at Septa ? Who else is making reports lke this?

Garden, the problem with Rotem as I see it, is that I believe that the Septa order is the 1st order of American railcars for the company and they dont have the experience of building car bodies to meet American standards and welds. I have seen railcars in Europe and they arent built nearly as elaborate or heavy (whether thats a good thing or bad IMO, I dont know). This company is definately no Budd or Pullman or any other company. The other problem I think with the car is that they are the 1st American cars to be built with quater point doors with stairways in the car body instead of at the ends where the vestibules were creating the warping or buckling problems.I dont think the stress problems have been resolved without making the cars alot heavier. I dont believe that testing at Rotem has begun as the cars arent completely assembeled, so the problems are occuring as the cars are being built.The last report I rec'd from the union was about a month ago so thats about as current as I can get with everyone on here.I agree that Rotem may still be able to deliever a good car and I hope they do. The cars should be nicer then riding the Budds now. The cars will have better seating and hopefully HVAC thats improved as well. The cars will have the full width cab (which may annoy someone on here as they seem to have a personal agenda against the engineers right now with complaint letters and job terminations as a result but I guess thats another story ). Someone I know will be visiting the Korean plant soon and I hope he gets plenty of pics of the cars under construction...All I can say is I hope he enjoys the trip. Sounds like fun

Oh nice, hopefully he'll let you post some photos here, I'm sure we're all curious how the SL5s are shaping up.

BuddSilverliner269 wrote:(which may annoy someone on here as they seem to have a personal agenda against the engineers right now with complaint letters and job terminations as a result but I guess thats another story ).

???? an untold story?

Clearfield wrote:

BuddSilverliner269 wrote:(which may annoy someone on here as they seem to have a personal agenda against the engineers right now with complaint letters and job terminations as a result but I guess thats another story ).

???? an untold story?

Not for on here. I guess Im venting alil thats all Bob. Someone on here will know what Im talking about. Of course you can PM me if you like????

BuddSilverliner269 wrote:

Clearfield wrote:

BuddSilverliner269 wrote:(which may annoy someone on here as they seem to have a personal agenda against the engineers right now with complaint letters and job terminations as a result but I guess thats another story ).

???? an untold story?

Not for on here. I guess Im venting alil thats all Bob. Someone on here will know what Im talking about. Of course you can PM me if you like????

Hahaha