Septa's Doomsday Budget 2013-2023

So then you're advocating the status quo? Don't you see at this point it doesn't matter if you're right and the other side is wrong..? We lose here in SE PA, regardless. Something big needs to happen, and it's certainly not going to come from the majority in the general assembly. If we choose to tax ourselves, they lose any and all veto rights and the pot should go solely to regional transportation. This is not an original idea, and i believe other regions use similar funding formulas. It's far too simple to ever happen though.

If the Pennsylvanian government don't want to pay SEPTA to run rails anymore then they'll have to deal with paying for I-76, I-476, I-276, I-95, local roads into philly, etc. since the roads will be overcrowded if SEPTA shuts down 9 of its regional rail lines

Hello everybody

I read this news and i feel like i am shocked that this could happen, this is sad, Public Transportation is a service, not a profit running system, but its sad that there will be more a dinimish of whats already in place? What do they think of the people using SEPTA or better yet why doesn't PennDOT form a new company for the regional rail system because its sad to see this be lost due to the government in Pennsylvania being stupid and selfish that they will have dire consequences if they lose alot of the services, how will people get around easier.

Isn't SEPTA upgrading many of its infrastructure? the West Trenton upgrade, the Wayne Junction remodeling? the new silverliner V's, the upgrade of the bridgeport bridge of the Route 100, its really stupid and sad that they want to do this, I want and wish SEPTA would give the Regional Rail to another Agency because i don't want to see this happening.

Another thing i want to say is there a Rally or something to continue support for Rail services in Philadelphia? i don't want this to go away because one Philly has a long history of Rail with the Pennsy, Reading and such, also it provides the people access to and from philly and cross trips in a very efficent and clean manner, also people use Rail more to get the airport, why lose this? Highways aren't the only way to get around, there has to be something that can help SEPTA and that can give the Rail Division of SEPTA to another Agency that way maybe it can be maintained better?

This is typical political jockeying. SEPTA cries wolf, the people respond, the pols come to the rescue. The last time a major funding cut turned into permanent loss of rail service was in 1981, but that effected everyone. In '81 we lost all the diesel trains in Philly, plus the NJ Shore trains and a few others. But that was because the Feds stopped funding transit operations. Its laughable to think so much money has been dumped into SEPTA/Amtrak in PA over the last decade, and that it would be turned into rust because the state didn't act.

Doesn't SEPTA have a backlog of about $5 billion worth of projects that are critical just to maintain current service levels?

Clearfield wrote:I was discussing the budget problem with Rich Burnfield, SEPTA's Treasurer back in May when the Board approved a one month budget anticipating that the Legislature would finally do its job. At the time, NO doomsday plan was in the works.

The only reason that I can think of for SEPTA to be announcing a doomsday plan now would be if they were convinced that the Legislature will not do their job, and that appropriate funding will not be on the horizon.

SEPTA finally has accountable management at a time when the racist Beverly Hillbillies running Harrisburg would rather fund nothing just to keep their constituents happy.

Just my 2 cents.

You are far from alone in such thinking.

The only real hope we have is a number of outspokenly progressive dem gubernatorial candidates that have expressed and implied that SEPTA would be take off the back burner and given proper attention.

Not trying to get political, but it is all relying on elected officials.

Anyone up for an unruly mob? We can take the keystone...

So my thoughts on this matter would likely get me banned if i used my own choice of words..... however..... Here is a toned down draft...


Clearly what we need to do is remove RRD from SEPTA and have a tri-state operating agency created to allow the region, including NJ, PA and DE, to have rail service that works. If the rail system is expanded, then you simply add those counties to the charter.

Quoting lower rider numbers after you've cut service and raised fares as evidence that the system is losing riders is a load of bullstuff. NOTHING will improve till the MASSIVE infrastructure investment that is clearly required is undertaken.

You wanna know why the hicks in harrisburg don't like septa? Because they are racists and see anything going to help a city filled with dark skinned people as a bad thing. There, someone said it. I am truly ashamed to live in a place founded on the principles of freedom and equality by William Penn that has been allowed to sink to this point. People are putting ideology ahead of practicality and logic and common sense and most importantly ahead of the long term viability of this region. You cannot have a healthy metropolis without a beefy public transport system that includes rail, it just is not sustainable. But these folks don't care, they think they are right, they don't "get" it, they don't understand it, or they are in the position to benefit from less or no rail service.

You got frack wells up in "Pennsylvania's grand canyon" area that just spew out flames 24/7 with no taxes nothing, they aren't even piping the gas or selling it, just let it burn so they don't lose the permit. That is the sick state we live in, and if you want PA trains to survive you will use your vote to say so, because the current roster on the failboat that is harrisburg doesn't give a damn.

25Hz wrote:You wanna know why the hicks in harrisburg don't like septa? Because they are racists and see anything going to help a city filled with dark skinned people as a bad thing. There, someone said it. I am truly ashamed to live in a place founded on the principles of freedom and equality by William Penn that has been allowed to sink to this point.

Care to back this up with anything?

morris&essex4ever wrote:

25Hz wrote:You wanna know why the hicks in harrisburg don't like septa? Because they are racists and see anything going to help a city filled with dark skinned people as a bad thing. There, someone said it. I am truly ashamed to live in a place founded on the principles of freedom and equality by William Penn that has been allowed to sink to this point.

Care to back this up with anything?

Yea living here my whole life. Do i need anything more?

Oh you want like stats and facts and figures right, not just "conjecture from a potentially biased source"..... Hearing racial slurs tossed around in public and private places nonchalantly, and derogatory, inflammatory, sexual, and other comments that would shock some on here... no offense but i live in the real world where you hear these things, things that personally upset me, on an all most daily basis. Being a witness isn't enough i guess.

PA is currently first in the number of members and numbers of hate groups in the entire country. That is a fact. Go check it yourself if you don't believe me.

There is a larger and much more complex socio-conomic situation involved here than is appropriate to get into in any thread, but if you wish you talk with me about it, please do feel free to send a PM with any/all questions & comments... i would definitely welcome such a conversation.

These are hard topics to bring up on a mostly laid back railroad-focused web forum, and, risking being called a troll, i know some of you would love to keep even mentioning such complex issues out of bounds.... But the truth is, that we live in a terribly flawed society filled with fear, distrust, hatred, and lot lot lot of misinformation... not a vacuum where everyone has a good head on their shoulders and a kind heart. Not suggesting we veer off into the depths of anthropology and sociology and start threads on it (which would be inappropriate), just suggesting keeping it to PM's and have a dialogue that moderators don't have to come in and clean up.

unfortunately there are a lot of unusual groups in PA. So what gives with the point.
The root of the legislative "attitude" goes back to the powerhouse days of Philadelphia and some of the stupid things they funded.They stomped their way to funding anything and everything they wanted.
The powerhouse is gone along with "Big Ed" and the gang of 10. sorry what you are seeing is a backlash to the "call of the cash" from Philadelphia schools and govt agencies. PS they city and area take more than they contribute in revenue. FACT not fiction.
Who can blame the "folks" to revolt against school funding when the City has $572 million in uncollected taxes (fact not fiction) or when SEPTA or other city agencies present data to prove a point" THAT VARIES from presentation to presentation. They may be from upstate but they "ain't stupid".
Who would wonder the area has a problem when Montgomery county is spending 60ML on a road to" Norristown" but won't give a postage stamp in additional funds to SEPTA rail or bus service.
Look the "city" area created this attitude, the upstate boys are pushing back after years of jamming, simple explanation yep, 100% right nope, Dam close yes.

PS: funding for the Keystone will pass by a narrow but sufficient margin as things stand as of Friday.
The folks need to show improvement for how they spend what they have before using the "call of the cash" again.

25Hz wrote:So my thoughts on this matter would likely get me banned if i used my own choice of words..... however..... Here is a toned down draft...

Clearly what we need to do is remove RRD from SEPTA and have a tri-state operating agency created to allow the region, including NJ, PA and DE, to have rail service that works. If the rail system is expanded, then you simply add those counties to the charter.

Quoting lower rider numbers after you've cut service and raised fares as evidence that the system is losing riders is a load of bullstuff. NOTHING will improve till the MASSIVE infrastructure investment that is clearly required is undertaken.

You wanna know why the hicks in harrisburg don't like septa? Because they are racists and see anything going to help a city filled with dark skinned people as a bad thing. There, someone said it. I am truly ashamed to live in a place founded on the principles of freedom and equality by William Penn that has been allowed to sink to this point. People are putting ideology ahead of practicality and logic and common sense and most importantly ahead of the long term viability of this region. You cannot have a healthy metropolis without a beefy public transport system that includes rail, it just is not sustainable. But these folks don't care, they think they are right, they don't "get" it, they don't understand it, or they are in the position to benefit from less or no rail service.

You got frack wells up in "Pennsylvania's grand canyon" area that just spew out flames 24/7 with no taxes nothing, they aren't even piping the gas or selling it, just let it burn so they don't lose the permit. That is the sick state we live in, and if you want PA trains to survive you will use your vote to say so, because the current roster on the failboat that is harrisburg doesn't give a damn.

Your first sentence was the best idea i think you've ever offered. The rest is where you go off the rails.

"because RACISM" is one of the stupidest arguments I've heard offered about SEPTA funding from the state.
You clearly have no shame, so I don't know where to go with this.
I'll quote it in full so future readers can examine your "toned down" argument.

Not for nothing, but SEPTA is larger than one city. We're a region of 5 or 6 million people (depending on how you count it). SEPTA itself reaches into New Jersey and Delaware, and there're many people who take connecting services to get into the city for work or pleasure. Harrisburg may hate Philadelphia, but I just cannot wrap my head around how it chooses to punish everyone in the region.

Whoever said there should be a regional authority running the show, I agree. The fractured approach to everything in the region is horrible. But it has to be a better model than, say, the port authority, whose board members are basically politically appointed pawns. The only conclusion I can make is that while conservative politicians rail against SEPTA for mismanagement this and welfare that, they must actually want the control the agency or reap the benefits or something, because THEY choose the board. How is anything supposed to get done when it's adversarial politicians at the helm of the damn thing? Why else wouldn't they say, forget this, let's get people who actually know about businesses and/or transit on the board and not just other politicians? This is the problem I have.

brylove7 wrote: Another thing i want to say is there a Rally or something to continue support for Rail services in Philadelphia? i don't want this to go away because one Philly has a long history of Rail with the Pennsy, Reading and such, also it provides the people access to and from philly and cross trips in a very efficent and clean manner, also people use Rail more to get the airport, why lose this? Highways aren't the only way to get around, there has to be something that can help SEPTA and that can give the Rail Division of SEPTA to another Agency that way maybe it can be maintained better?

I'm sure there will be rallies, although holding them in Harrisburg would likely be more effective than in Philly.

The operating ratio of SEPTA's RRD division, listed in the most recent Annual Service Plan, is 45%. That means that taxpayers - some local, some in Central PA, some in other states - are paying for 55% of the cost of running the railroad. They're also paying for capital projects. What other Agency will take on that kind of money-losing operation? Remember that SEPTA took over for private companies that went bankrupt. Would people be willing to pay two or three times the current fares if the railroad were given to a private company?

josef wrote:Harrisburg may hate Philadelphia, but I just cannot wrap my head around how it chooses to punish everyone in the region.

Fiscal conservatives are often willing to pay for something that everyone is likely to use. Metcalfe, for instance, is willing to have the state fund state roads. He wants Philadelphia to "pay for its own buses". I haven't yet found anything on what he thinks about rail. He seems to be singling out Philadelphia, not the surrounding counties. (I am not defending him at all, mind you, just reporting what I've read in news items.) What do others in Harrisburg say?

josef wrote: The only conclusion I can make is that while conservative politicians rail against SEPTA for mismanagement this and welfare that, they must actually want the control the agency or reap the benefits or something, because THEY choose the board. How is anything supposed to get done when it's adversarial politicians at the helm of the damn thing? Why else wouldn't they say, forget this, let's get people who actually know about businesses and/or transit on the board and not just other politicians? This is the problem I have.

trouble with that is half the board or people likely to be appointed, or even apply) all come from different transit agencies. all of theseguys go from njt to septa to bart to metra to whatever. they ride the ciircuit of public passenger railroads across the country; much like locusts, when one city or region gives 'em the boot, they move on to the next one.