Septa's Doomsday Budget 2013-2023

I was discussing the budget problem with Rich Burnfield, SEPTA's Treasurer back in May when the Board approved a one month budget anticipating that the Legislature would finally do its job. At the time, NO doomsday plan was in the works.

The only reason that I can think of for SEPTA to be announcing a doomsday plan now would be if they were convinced that the Legislature will not do their job, and that appropriate funding will not be on the horizon.

SEPTA finally has accountable management at a time when the racist Beverly Hillbillies running Harrisburg would rather fund nothing just to keep their constituents happy.

Just my 2 cents.

It's funny to read people bashing SEPTA management, as if incompetence was the entire reason the system's in the state it is. I'm obviously not saying there is none (there always is), but don't you think it's at least a little bit also to do with the fact that SEPTA gets somewhere around $300 million a year, whereas a system in a metro with about the same size population and even smaller central city gets $800 million? I'm talking about the MBTA, which serves an area pretty damn similar to Philadelphia. Subways, trolleys, busses, regional rail, there're a lot of similarities. Of course this isn't to say people don't still complain about the MBTA in Boston (I lived there for four years; they do). But still.

No this isn't hating, this is realism. SEPTA has been underfunded for years. They've also apparently not done a great job at replacing the things they should be replacing to avert staged system shutdowns. If things are really that bad, pull the plug now and force the issue in Harrisburg.

If this happens traffic on 76 476 95 etc will be hell

So all you buffs still think PA will give septa money to run our keystone trains? Ha!!!!!

BPP1999 wrote: Sorry, but I find this hard to believe. They are grand-standing for more money (as they should be, since they are so grossly underfunded). Corbett's own party helped pass a bill that would provide $500M+ to public transportation. The governor would vote that bill into law had the PA House passed it and put it on his desk. The only thing people can do is to pressure their lawmakers via letters, emails, and phone calls. Our state legislators are getting an earful from business groups in support of this legislation, on both sides of the state.

Maybe Metclafe doesn't support this bill because there isn't enough business in his district to benefit from infrastructure spending. Of course his rural county will benefit from the mere presence of the Southeast in the Commonwealth.

Let's not kid ourselves. When reviewing SEPTA's history, the domination of bus and light rail oriented mindsets in its leadership is as plain as day. Until about 2000 or whenever the SVM concept was scrapped, SEPTA's wet dream was to convert all the non-Amtrak lines to light rail style operation. Now they simply want to do away with the commuter lines altogether. On the whole, SEPTA has never embraced commuter/regional rail as a viable transit mode. It only tolerates rail due to political pressure and the fact that the paltry subsidies it receives would be slashed even further.

I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge that SEPTA has never received sufficient funds as peer legacy agencies in New York, Boston, Chicago, and San Francisco have. But with that said, it's politically impossible for a transit agency to get that kind of funding from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania; even with the "earful" our legislators have been getting lately. This writing has always been on the wall, and thus every few years we get doomsday threats that the system will have to be abandoned. And, sadly, these threats will recur until they finally do come to pass.

lefty wrote:Is this a Doomsday budget or Dream Budget? Septa never liked Regional Rail.

Closing the Ridge and Express is an operating expense, though perhaps they are planning on buying less trains when they replace the Kawasaki's.

They probably are taking into account that the B-IVs will be very old and in the shop more often, so they don't be able has as many cars in service as they do today.

bikentransit wrote:You've seen him before. You know what he's going to say as soon as you see him. Nobody wants to hear it, and everybody knows if you give him something, it won't pay for what he says he needs.

I'm not talking about the homeless begger on the El, I'm talking about Joe Casey.

For years, SEPTA has been getting hefty grants to pay for all sorts of new things. New El cars, silverliners, brand new station facilities, track projects, NPT, customer information systems, buses, and bus facilities.

Casey has been singing the same song for years. Yet he keeps taking handouts from smiling politicians for projects that aren't first tier that would avert doomsday scenarios. The Doylestown has all new stations with high level platforms, but its on the list of routes to be cut. Why?

The Route 15 and 10 trolleys are on Casey's list for next year, yet both routes have had extensive amounts of new rail installed.

Casey just took a $10 mil grant for new rail in West Trenton, but that's going to go in a few years. And Warminster has a brand new signal system, but is also a favorite line to get rid of. Why?

If there are bad bridges, its Joe Casey's job to say he needs money for bridges and not for platforms. If the bridges are going to fail before the new signal rules go into effect, why did he take money to install signals on a line that could potentially be out of service in a few years?

Further, his "pied piper" tactic is not constructive. People ignore his message because we've heard it before and its never happened. We all know SEPTA hates trains and would love to just bus-titute the whole system. The politicians point fingers, and the rest of Pennsy decries more money going into the black hole known as SEPTA.

Its time for a new and real strategy. Its time to stop wasting money on stuff that isnt top priority, and if SEPTA isnt getting grants for bridges, then it needs to do something drastic, like turn down a grant for a topsoil because they really need a flower pot.

That's kind of unfair. If that was the intention, we would be having this conversation 2-3 years ago when funding from Act 44 tanked. Heck, if that was the intention, we would be experiencing cuts NOW instead of in the near future.

The "new signal systems" are REQUIRED by federal law, which actually is a significant part of the problem as it is an unfunded mandate. I imagine a part of the reason for the Warminster/West Trenton/Doylestown Branch shut downs also has to do with Jenkintown Substation, which needs upgrades apparently (we already have money to upgrade Wayne Junction).

The whole thing about this is that is not just a "SEPTA" problem. EVERY transportation agency in the state of Pennsylvania is suffering due to the inaction of the legislator, from Port Authority to PennDOT to the PA Turnpike. The new weight restrictions on local bridges were enacted for the same reason this doomsday budget was posted.

You and a SEPTA official could probably go down almost every line item on that list of cuts and the time they are planned to be cut and see the reason why they were put on the list.

For the system the size of SEPTA and more importantly the AGE of SEPTA, the amount of money for the capital budget is ridiculous. Don't forget we have a $5 billion backlog just to bring the system up to a state of good repair...and the bill is only for $2.5 billion.

BuddSilverliner269 wrote:So all you buffs still think PA will give septa money to run our keystone trains? Ha!!!!!

Won't Keystone/Pennsylvanian funding be in the same boat if the PA State Legislature doesn't put out a Transportation Funding Bill to adequately fund transportation throughout the state? I was under the impression that the new agreement between PennDOT and the state was contingent on this bill being passed.

Wingnut wrote:Let's not kid ourselves. When reviewing SEPTA's history, the domination of bus and light rail oriented mindsets in its leadership is as plain as day. Until about 2000 or whenever the SVM concept was scrapped, SEPTA's wet dream was to convert all the non-Amtrak lines to light rail style operation. Now they simply want to do away with the commuter lines altogether. On the whole, SEPTA has never embraced commuter/regional rail as a viable transit mode. It only tolerates rail due to political pressure and the fact that the paltry subsidies it receives would be slashed even further.

Help me understand this. Why would SEPTA hate regional rail? I feel like it's an absolute necessity in 2013, when people live in the suburbs but work in a city. Why would you hate a huge source of ridership?

Wingnut wrote:I would be remiss if I didn't acknowledge that SEPTA has never received sufficient funds as peer legacy agencies in New York, Boston, Chicago, and San Francisco have. But with that said, it's politically impossible for a transit agency to get that kind of funding from the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania; even with the "earful" our legislators have been getting lately. This writing has always been on the wall, and thus every few years we get doomsday threats that the system will have to be abandoned. And, sadly, these threats will recur until they finally do come to pass.

Another question. It's obvious that PA is run by people who don't give much of a crap about public transportation. But these people are supposed to be good at business and fiscal responsibility. I mean, I personally don't care who runs the damn system, as long as it's run well. So why don't they figure out how to get it running well, come up with good business ideas, be like, "listen, we'll help you solve this, but it's gotta be like this". Or be like, we'll help you, but you have to bring in someone to help you get this ship in order. Give and take, right? Isn't that how it's supposed to be? Like, ignoring the problem is not going to help anyone. Conservatives like the tax dollars that a well-running Philadelphia economic engine sends to Harrisburg as much as anyone else. I just do. not. understand.

I was reading this last night. I got so heated. This makes no sense. So their will be no trolley service (my neck of the woods) and half the regional rail CUT. Like really, this the 80's all over again. What are they going to do with the trolley tunnel and stations they will deteriorate into a mess. Regional Rail service is gonna affect the Sw part of the city and the suburbs. Who wants to take a damn bus to center city from Delaware or the Airport. This state is just crazy. I want all those state people to crit a week to come and ride the system and ask the passengers how they would feel if the service was cut and not funded and how it would affect them. The economy is going to fall if that happens and ppl will lose jobs, and this city won't have it the public is gonna flip.

BuddSilverliner269 wrote:So all you buffs still think PA will give septa money to run our keystone trains? Ha!!!!!

NOPE!

How about just giving the 5 county region a regional sales tax authority? (I know it is forbidden by the state presently)
It could flow through DVRPC or some other regional entity, and Potter county's yokels wouldn't be on the hook for it.
What's so difficult to the leadership about that?
I think Wingnut may have hit the more realistic scenario though.. What happens if the whole thing falls apart and the region's roads get strangled?
Lots of angry voters, that's what.
I wish we just had a transportation czar to come up with some sort of regional plan that makes sense. It is rather assanine to pour money into projects that will only be abandoned at a later date.
Make a plan, and follow it in order.

josef wrote:
Help me understand this. Why would SEPTA hate regional rail? I feel like it's an absolute necessity in 2013, when people live in the suburbs but work in a city. Why would you hate a huge source of ridership?

Another question. It's obvious that PA is run by people who don't give much of a crap about public transportation. But these people are supposed to be good at business and fiscal responsibility. I mean, I personally don't care who runs the damn system, as long as it's run well. So why don't they figure out how to get it running well, come up with good business ideas, be like, "listen, we'll help you solve this, but it's gotta be like this". Or be like, we'll help you, but you have to bring in someone to help you get this ship in order. Give and take, right? Isn't that how it's supposed to be? Like, ignoring the problem is not going to help anyone. Conservatives like the tax dollars that a well-running Philadelphia economic engine sends to Harrisburg as much as anyone else. I just do. not. understand.

They hate regional rail because they've been forced to run it with a shoestring budget since 1983. While RRD's ridership suggests it has value, it's all for naught if they can't afford the upkeep. I've been an NRHS member for 20 years and I was also in DVARP. Their meetings and newsletters alone would lead any rational thinking person to the conclusion that the acronym Society to Eliminate Public Transporation Altogether is not a joke. Although there are people within SEPTA who believe in the railroad and are fighting to support it, they can't overcome the institutional anti-rail bias that's entrenched at 1234 Market Street.

Harrisburg also wishes they could throw out the city of Philadelphia (consumes over twice as much in state spending as it raises in taxes) while keeping the considerable jobs, wealth, and tax revenue generated by its suburbs.

Making a 5 county regional sales tax authority to help close the gap between what the state is willing to pay and what SEPTA needs to maintain rail service is a tantalizing thought. But even as a whole, the region is relatively weak economically compared to other metro areas and the idea of an additional tax locally might be balked at.

Wingnut wrote:They hate regional rail because they've been forced to run it with a shoestring budget since 1983.

Does that imply that if they were properly funded, they wouldn't hate it?

Wingnut wrote:Harrisburg also wishes they could throw out the city of Philadelphia (consumes over twice as much in state spending as it raises in taxes) while keeping the considerable jobs, wealth, and tax revenue generated by its suburbs.

But, I mean, they can't. And the suburbs aren't going to exist without an -urb to be a sub- of. And a stronger central city means even more affluent suburbs (see: nearly any direct suburb of Boston). This would lead me to believe they are whiney children and not rational humans being, let alone intelligent enough to run a state.