SEPTA Cancels CRRC multi level order (Was:SEPTA to get multi-level railroad coaches)

You know, reading all this about shiny new multilevels from a variety of manufacturers, it sounds like everyone here is foaming for these things immediately. Need I continue to point out again that new P/P coaches are pointless unless you have something reliable to pull them?

R3 Passenger wrote:You know, reading all this about shiny new multilevels from a variety of manufacturers, it sounds like everyone here is foaming for these things immediately. Need I continue to point out again that new P/P coaches are pointless unless you have something reliable to pull them?

That's true, but the matter of the engines is a little more up in the air at this point.

SEPTA2461 wrote:

R3 Passenger wrote:You know, reading all this about shiny new multilevels from a variety of manufacturers, it sounds like everyone here is foaming for these things immediately. Need I continue to point out again that new P/P coaches are pointless unless you have something reliable to pull them?

That's true, but the matter of the engines is a little more up in the air at this point.

What I mean to say is, it's easier to discuss coaches that SEPTA is actively planning to buy, than replacement engines we don't even know about.

SEPTA2461 wrote:That's true, but the matter of the engines is a little more up in the air at this point.

Not really true. At a presentation a couple of weeks ago SEPTA said they clearly intend to piggyback the Amtrak order for new locomotives now that money is available, and its not too late to order.

R3 Passenger wrote:You know, reading all this about shiny new multilevels from a variety of manufacturers, it sounds like everyone here is foaming for these things immediately. Need I continue to point out again that new P/P coaches are pointless unless you have something reliable to pull them?

I all ready mentioned that they need new locos if they are going to get new coaches, but ok.

CComMack wrote:You misunderstand. I meant that, if the North River Tunnels are smaller than the Suburban Station approach, and I'm fairly sure they are in at least one respect, there's no reason to spend extra money making sure SEPTA's new bilevels are North River-compatible. We have plenty of other equipment we could send to Penn Station if some unforeseeable necessity arose. Even LIRR did not bother making its C3 bilevel fleet North River-compatible, and they run right into Penn Station!

The LIRR had no need to have their cars fit the North River profile, since they were special-built for them and can only work high-level platforms. Any new SEPTA cars will have to fit Amtrak clearance envelopes at minimum from Sunnyside to Washington DC and Harrisburg, so they can be useful come Thanksgiving time.... just in case....

In any event, yes, SEPTA will be doing a full clearance study.
Yes, the Bombardier multilevel is the most likely candidate.
And new locomotives will more than likely be here long before any new coaches are even ordered. After all, the existing Bombardier fleet (except for the center-door cars) is undergoing overhaul (as time permits, no schedule for finishing, with 2 cars now completed).

http://planphilly.com/articles/2017/03/ ... uth-philly" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"At its meeting next week, SEPTA’s board is expected to award CRRC MA Corporation a $137.5 million contract to build 45 bilevel railcars for Regional Rail. SEPTA picked the Chinese-owned company with a factory in Springfield, Mass., over bids from South Korea’s Hyundai Rotem, which has a manufacturing plant in South Philadelphia, and Bombardier, a Canadian company with plants near Pittsburgh and Plattsburgh, N.Y."

I guess Hyundai wasn't low enough on the scale for SEPTA?

Sad, there are some really nice bilevels running around Europe right now that could probbly be modified to work. Or Stadler's KISS sets that cali is buying (which I think are dual platform, no less, they'd just have to make the clearences work, and oh yeah, kill the Siemens order because they're MU).

The Chinese's big push into the US railcar market is interesting, for a country that can't innovate, can't meet quality targets, and who's only game is 'low cost of purchase'. They've found a good sucker in US transit agencies, though, it seems...

Everyone:

Interesting news about new multilevel cars for Regional Rail. What surprises me somewhat is that
Bombardier got outbid and could have used a follow up from the recent MARC order to save money.

More then likely these new cars will be of the multilevel type and not the MARC Kawasaki or MBTA
bilevel which stand taller then multilevels and must clear low catenary wire areas such as the one
between the 20th Street portal and 30th Street Station. More then likely these cars will be used on
longer distance services such as Paoli-Thorndale, Wilmington-Newark, Trenton, West Trenton and
perhaps Lansdale-Doylestown along with new ACS64 Sprinters replacing the 30 year old AEM7s.

Fare collection could be a problem for train crews but more then likely by the time these new cars
go into service the Key replacement may end on board fares being collected other then spot checks.

MACTRAXX

I'm not surprised someone undercut BBD. Bombardier is bleeding money like crazy in the form of the C-Series, which was supposed to take on Boeing and Airbus at the lower end and make them a 'legitimate' competitor to A & B. The larger Embraer jets have been spotty at best (the 170/175 have been awesome from a passenger perspective, but the 190 has been a disaster for JetBlue and others). They saw a hole in the market 10-12 years ago, and only now plugged it. A super efficient, super advanced plane is a hard sell when fuel's cheap and the market is flooded with slightly used 737s and A320s...

They have no money. The almost annual bailouts of the firm are starting to become an issue in Canada, and they've screwed up pretty much every rail order they've done in the last 5 years or so.

The C-Series was too late, too over budget, and sales have been sluggish, to say the least. They'll likely never break even, and there's still a good shot at orders getting cancelled. The CRJ is an unwanted dinosaur from years past, and their biz jet biz is getting buzzcut by others. Other than staying Canada's crownless Crown Corporation, I don't see how they can survive, and nobody else does either - witness the stock price as of late.

One can only hope that Septa's board will override and award the contract to Bombardier, but I have little hope.

How long until the trucks crack on these?

ChemiosMurphy wrote:One can only hope that Septa's board will override and award the contract to Bombardier, but I have little hope.

CRRC's bid was determined to be responsive, and the law says they have to award to the lowest responsive bidder, period. I don't think anyone really believes they can do the job.

How long until the trucks crack on these?

Depends. SEPTA having Rotem use a truck from an also-ran manufacturer sure didn't help. But I hold no hope for these cars anyway, though at least being push/pulls, they'll get awful utilitization so they should have plenty of time to be shop queens. Why SEPTA is even looking at buying railcars that'll sit most of their lives is beyond me, they must be awash in money though. shurg

Hopefully SEPTA's board doesn't approve this, no experience and another shot in the dark like rotem. I can feel a plethora of problems with CRRC I just don't know.

I'm hoping Bombardier gets this through some way, doubt it'll happen but you never know. They already have a proven product

Is it possible that Bombardier could sweeten the deal by maybe lowering their bid price ? Far as I'm concerned I read that they received "Very good rating". This still messes me up. I don't understand why the lowest bidder had to be awarded contracts with the technical and engineering portions not being "BEST". ? That just spells disaster in my book. I'm sure over things came into play like cost. Not saying everything is perfect but it pays to have good quality and SEPTA should want to pay some $$$ for quality. If they can order 525 buses from New Flyer which I'm guessing is over $800 Million in total over a yearly period shouldn't some new rolling stock be held to that care of spending. I'm a bit curious for the Silverliner 6 , and BSL contracts. And this also have to do with keeping local jobs in the city ?

I've heard that in other countries, the low bid is automatically thrown out. Wish SEPTA could do that. I'd much rather see the Bi-Levels built by Bombardier.