Rohr RTL III Turboliners: Status, Location, Disposition

I don't think very many Amtrak people are shedding any tears that these
things are gone.

What about passengers? Wouldn't a modern, double ended car (if we could find someone to build one to FRA compliance) work well to avoid the reverse move on the Vermonter route? Is Amtrak running trains for its employees or its customers (politicians are a given)? The impression I get is that passengers are desiring modern equipment, but all of the reasons I see being given why we can't have this are either:

a) political - (i.e. monetary)
b) regulatory - (which is somewhat political)
c) technical - which can be solved through engineering

None of these are problems that can not be overcome, eventually. Can't we learn from past experience with the Turbos and other experience to help design a new vehicle that preserves the benefits (i.e. double headed, larger windows), but that tries to solve the technical problems of third rail running and other technical/maintenance issues?

Noel Weaver wrote:
I don't think very many Amtrak people are shedding any tears that these
things are gone.

Maybe not but the taxpayers sure got hosed, spending $70 million on equipment they don't even get to use. To then take away cafe car service to save a mere $1 million a year is like adding insult to injury. It's the paying customers who are losing out here.

Here is a question. Could you remove one of the power cars, replace it with a regular P42 or P32ACDM and convert the rest of the train to push pull arrangement like on the Keystone Corridor and use these for the Empire Service Trains? This may very well impossible but I know nothing about these trains and have in the past paid little attention to these trains.
Cheers,
Nick

ngotwalt wrote:Here is a question. Could you remove one of the power cars, replace it with a regular P42 or P32ACDM and convert the rest of the train to push pull arrangement like on the Keystone Corridor and use these for the Empire Service Trains? This may very well impossible but I know nothing about these trains and have in the past paid little attention to these trains.
Cheers,
Nick

I asked that question once, and as I recall the HEP connections are currently incompatible. Don't know what it'd take to make it happen. The Turboliner power car would sure make a nice, sleek looking cab control car though!

It would be sort of analogous to the Metroliner MU's living on as cab cars, I guess!

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
ATK-07-146

Contacts:
Amtrak Media Relations (202) 906-3860
NY State Department of Transportation (518) 457-6400
December 12, 2007
New York and Amtrak Resolve Empire Corridor High-Speed Rail Project Dispute

New York State Department of Transportation Commissioner Astrid C. Glynn and Amtrak President and Chief Executive Officer Alexander K. Kummant today announced the resolution of their contract disputes and related federal court litigation over a former New York State Department of Transportation program to develop high-speed passenger rail service from New York City to the Capital District using RTL Turboliner trains from Amtrak.

Under the terms of the settlement, Amtrak will pay New York State $20 million. In addition, New York and Amtrak will jointly invest $10 million in infrastructure improvement projects on the Albany–New York City Empire Corridor as approved by the New York State Senate High-Speed Rail Task Force.

One of the track improvements is planned near the George Washington Bridge and will improve service and enhance safety in this rail corridor. The work also will reduce travel times and should save New York rail passengers 2.6 million passenger-minutes per year. Currently, Amtrak operates weekday and weekend service on the Empire Corridor, with up to 13 departures per day, using predominantly Amfleet passenger rail equipment.

"A reliable, efficient passenger rail system is critical to tourism and robust economic development across New York State," Gov. Eliot Spitzer said. "This agreement puts to rest a long-standing dispute and enables the State and Amtrak to move forward cooperatively to improve passenger rail service and the state's rail infrastructure."

Amtrak President Kummant said, "This settlement now allows both Amtrak and the State of New York to concentrate on the improvements to rail service that I know our Board and Governor Spitzer desire to achieve in New York."

Interesting, that came out of the blue! No mention at all, however, of the fate of the Turboliner equipment. I would hope that if they don't return to service, at least one trainset could be preserved in a museum. Certainly they seem too valuable, despite their faults, to simply be scrapped.

I'm pleased you read that press release carefully; Mr. HSR.

I must admit, the wording regarding the Turboliners had me fooled; it appeared "at first blush" they were to be retuned to service.

I'm afraid the Turbo rebuilds were ill-starred from the beginning. Rebuilding the equipment for a third time, with its known faults (high fuel consumption, generally high maintenance cost) was probably a waste of money. More than that, the state's plan for 125-mph speeds was also a waste of money; the longest segment of 125 would have been too short for the Turbos to reach that speed, according to the simulation results I saw (my consulting firm was part of the Hudson River Corridor study a couple of years ago). Also, the 2:00 timing desired by the state for ALB - NYP was essentially impossible on a regular basis -- not enough recovery time.

I know it seems a shame to sideline the Turbos when Amtrak is so short of equipment, but what we need is a pool of new, compatible equipment and not a collection of oddball specialized train sets.

http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story. ... 12/12/2007


Yes, maybe it should be in the Amtrak forum but it affects the State more I think.

So what happens to the rotting turbo sets?

As you can see no deal to revive the Turbo liners, just a deal to bury the hatchet and move on.

I wonder if that money had been spent on other projects how much better Empire Service would be by now. NellieBly, for your study, what did you identify as improvements? I'd be curious as to electrification (type and distance), etc. With GM out of the picture in T'Town, is the need for heightened clearance gone? I know MNRR would continue to use DC, but could the remainder of the corridor use cat? Could the Empire runs could use dual motive power similar to MNRR NH?

Edited once for spelling: electrification.

Sarge wrote:I wonder if that money had been spent on other projects how much better Empire Service would be by now. NellieBly, for your study, what did you identify as improvements? I'd be curious as to electrication (type and distance), etc. With GM out of the picture in T'Town, is the need for heightened clearance gone? I know MNRR would continue to use DC, but could the remainder of the corridor use cat? Could the Empire runs could use dual motive power similar to MNRR NH?

cat would allow run throughs to Washington, and NY terminated service coudl theoretically be run through to Albany.

Even with Catenary a engine chance would be neccesary since trains enter NYP from wrong side to go to Washington DC.
So therefor run trough services would not gain one thing by your suggestion.

DutchRailnut wrote:Even with Catenary a engine chance would be neccesary since trains enter NYP from wrong side to go to Washington DC.
So therefor run trough services would not gain one thing by your suggestion.

Cab Car?

Or using current trainsets with an aem-7 on the tail end from albany that upon arrival in NYP would become the new head end? The P32 on the other end could be towed to WAS where the trainset would be turned to provide the reverse situation on the return trip.

Not enough cab cars on Amtrak to do that.
plus Cab cars would restrict the moves to lower speeds on NEC.

Besides Catenay would exceed (Dr.Evil immitation) one billion dollar to do NYC to Albany