Redundancy for NEC

Going to hoboken is not going to happen. The logistics of getting new york passengers from there to NY would be alot of trouble, as well as baggage and other things. On top of that hoboken is all low level only and has no way to service commissary and baggage in hoboken. or even deal with emptying toilets in every single car. Hoboken already runs at a pinch near capacity as it is on a daily basis. The only way to turn trains around would be the west end wye, which would require a move all the way out to West End on the other side of the tunnels. It would be easier to just bring trains to newark penn and bus to NYP. engines could run around the consist in hudson yard on one of the various tracks that are often open and free there.

You also cant just use engines from NJT. The railroad is already power short and using almost every single dual mode they can to supplement out of service electrics and diesels for various reasons.

I'm not sure why there's such an obsession in these parts about running non-NJT trains to Hoboken. We discussed it somewhat in the Gateway thread, and I gave the same objections that you did here. At least Newark Penn is in the Amtrak system, even if the facilities are still somewhat subpar.

Next, people will be advocating that we rebuild the approaches to CNJ Communipaw Terminal, Liberty State Park visitors be damned.

I'm reminded the one time I was on an Acela to NYP and they had to terminate outside the city, they terminated at Newark Penn Station and most of us simply took the PATH in. Not something you could do every day for every train, but it worked for the few hours that day.

srock1028 wrote:

TrainPhotos wrote: I guess some people would initially say divert amtrak to hoboken, but amtrak trains using hoboken would face significant challenges.

I don't think Amtrak trains can not go into Hoboken due to the voltage changes in the catenary from 12Kv to 25Kv at the Waterfront Phase Gap.

SRock and Everyone:

I recall the main reason that NJT trains from the NJCL and RVL that run to Hoboken are not electric is that
there is a segment of track of about 1000 feet that has no overhead wire on the Waterfront Connection...

Using the single track CSX route between West Trenton and Bound Brook - the route once used by the Wall
Street and Crusader trains between Newark and Philadelphia Reading Terminal until the Summer of 1981 -
could be a interesting alternative route for the NEC but its single track - and it being CSX main freight route
between North Jersey and Philadelphia - precludes its use for passenger trains - I remember that for NJT to
restore West Trenton passenger service CSX would require a second track to be funded and constructed...

MACTRAXX

Not only is the CSX line single track, but I believe there isn't even a siding between Bound Brook and CP WING, which is just east of West Trenton. I think it's Rule 261, which would allow following movements to be fleeted, but an opposing movement would have a long wait.

MACTRAXX wrote:Using the single track CSX route between West Trenton and Bound Brook - the route once used by the Wall
Street and Crusader trains between Newark and Philadelphia Reading Terminal until the Summer of 1981 -
could be a interesting alternative route for the NEC but its single track - and it being CSX main freight route
between North Jersey and Philadelphia - precludes its use for passenger trains - I remember that for NJT to
restore West Trenton passenger service CSX would require a second track to be funded and constructed...

MACTRAXX

This was also used to reroute some of the Amtrak traffic when a Conrail wreck at Metuchen blocked the NEC in 1977. However, it was much easier at that time. Conrail caused the blockage and also owned all the tracks used to reroute. As stated above the former Reading portion had two tracks and the former CNJ portion had four tracks--twice the trackage of today.

Don't forget the draw bridges in CT in MNRR territory. Especially WALK. And the wye in Berlin is gone.

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:Is there even a need to spend substantial capital funds on this given how rare disruptions are lasting more than a few hours? The North River Tunnels are the only failure points that completely seal off any commuter rail workarounds, which worked quite well with SEPTA's and NJT's cross-honoring of Amtrak tix last week. I can't see how raiding NJT for dual-mode power when it's got a power shortage or gumming up SEPTA with extra congestion is anything but a cure worse than the disease.

...

It's interesting how redundancy had a roll in the delcine of Northeast railroads (to many routes to the same place) and now we are talking about it needing more of it.

gprimr1 wrote:It's interesting how redundancy had a roll in the delcine of Northeast railroads (to many routes to the same place) and now we are talking about it needing more of it.

Well, then traffic was down so redundancy was a liability, but now that traffic has shot up pretty much across the board, redundancy is an asset. It's a shame that so much downsizing had to happen, but I doubt the railroads could have survived as a private industry without it.

As to NEC redundancy, I think it'd be good to have on Amtrak's long-range plan, but there are far too many issues with the existing NEC to begin worrying about redundancy now. I think before there's any usable redundant route we'll have next-gen HSR on a new alignment, and the existing NEC will become the redundant route.

How is the plan on building a new set of North River Tunnels 3 and 4 and perhaps 5 and 6 ?
would be an great idea for the future of high speed NEC and redundancy.

Let's also not fotget about the required phase gap between former PRR voltages and former DLW voltages. Every Amtrak loco heading to Hoboken would be required to be able to operate at different voltages.

SRich wrote:How is the plan on building a new set of North River Tunnels 3 and 4 and perhaps 5 and 6 ?
would be an great idea for the future of high speed NEC and redundancy.

Sometime, somewhere in the future, your grandkids will be asking that question.

Though at this rate it'll also be, "how long have Tunnels 1 and 2 been closed now..."

Congress can't get off its rear-end to do proper investment in infrastructure.

SemperFidelis wrote:Let's also not fotget about the required phase gap between former PRR voltages and former DLW voltages. Every Amtrak loco heading to Hoboken would be required to be able to operate at different voltages.

That shouldn't be a problem since the line to Hoboken uses the same voltage (25KV 60 HZ) as New Haven to Boston.

There are lots of other reasons diversion to Hoboken wouldn't work but this is not one of them.

Jon

Septa to trenton via woodBourne makes a lot of sense from a passenger traffic standpoint and would serve as redundancy for amtrak. Freight traffic isnt what it was

Yeah, my bad on the voltage issue. I didn't realize the former NH segment was the same as the former DLW lines...