Rain prompts cancelation of Greenport Scoot

Members,

Better rail service east of KO will become a serious political issue in the years ahead.

As much as I agree with Jay regarding his statement that East End service evaporated because the traffic base wasn’t there, I have to disagree with him regarding the currently growing traffic base. The mid section of Long Island and the East End is far from being “built out” but is heading that way. Those carloads of lumber Jay brings out East equate to many new homes and new people living east of KO. Our automobile traffic situation is out of control right now. Demand for more frequent train service is being heard now and will only get louder as more families move East.

If the LIRR/MTA wanted to increase train frequency on the North Fork, I believe it could do it easily by assigning one more diesel MU unit and crew to KO. I would never expect to see Greenport as a working train terminal again. But it would be reasonable to expect the last train east at night lay over and go west in the morning, eliminating the east bound deadhead. During the day, the two sets would work back and forth from Greenport to Ronkonkoma, utilizing a passing siding to safely get by one another. In my opinion, The GREATEST deterrent to leaving a train in Greenport overnight will be the noise complaints from the neighbors!

Believe me, I doubt the LIRR/MTA will ever do any of this. As I have opinioned on these pages before, I think the bean-counters in Albany have looked into the future and they see what the East End will cost. I think the game is already in play to spin off the current little-used lines to a Long Island based Transit Authority. Savings to the MTA will be realized by pulling much needed trainsets back west, the elimination of crews due to attrition and not having to maintain the lines any more. The new Authority will contract with a rail management company to move the passengers (similar to NYA moving freight) and maintain the right of way and trainsets. New RDC type trainsets will be purchased with ISTEA funds or low interest bonds and the trains will run again.

We’ll see, I’m not going anywhere

de Don, nn2qhvRMLI

Some funny remarks have been made about the service east of KO.

First if you are not a year round resident of the North Fork, your opinons on this service mean NOTHING to me. For some reason many in-islanders still treat the East End as a "summer place" and for some reason act as though the year round residents as "persona non grati" (ie: they do not exist). Some would call these people with this warped opinion of the east End as living in the past, I am not that kind I call it stupidity, or perhaps jealousy.

The LIRR's lack of service on the line east of KO has nothing to due with "lack of demand" circa 2004, perhaps it was lack of demand 20 years ago, but it is surely not lack of demand today.

The record passenger loads that the Sunrise Express Bus Copmany is carrying, and in turn turn a profit on, speak volumes about the demand that exists TODAY , and many of us who have to use Sunrise would take the train if it had a schedule that made common sence. Sunrise requires reservations for it's runs and is often selling out it's buses leaving no room for people travelling without reservations, and Sunrise bans any cell phone use on it's runs. Just think of how the LIRR could market itself against this competitior, but then it can't with the idiotic schedule that it runs east of KO, and driving to KO is NOT an option.

Further laying over the last train of the night in Greenport, does not require reinventing the wheel. That train would simply lay over for a few hours and then return to KO as the first run of the morning, similar to what occcurs nightly in Montauk.

The fact is with the Realty Tax Money that we pour into the MTA we derserve and demand better service and we will make it happen.

DERMODY MUST GO (and for that matter people who think like him)

Ken

im a "In islander" and i think that there certiantly should be severl more trains east of KO. its a shame that they have not a clue how to run a railroad like a railroad, rather they are playing chiledish games to people that need to use that system to make a living.

?? Why cant the mornig scoot lave greenport(revenue) arive at KO then lave KO as a revenue train arive at greenport and so on. maby make 3 revenue east trips and 4 revenue west trips and the 4th is nonstop from KO to jam.

(Train #'s are just for easier understanding and not to be confused by the #'s used today)
Eastbound arive at greenport 9.50 pm train # 2
Leaves westbound for KO at 400am as train #1
Leave EB from KO to Greenport as train #2
Leaves westbound for KO as train #3
Leave EB from KO to Greenport as train #4
Leaves westbound for KO then jamaica as train #3
after ariving at jamaica another train is sent east in revenue service. doing the same patern for mid day then evening. where the last train to Greenport will layover forthe morning rush.

I still haven't seen anyone else answering where the funding is coming from to pay for upgrading the line. This includes improving the signal system in place, upgrading the line to more than 45MPH (Since Sunrise Coach was mentioned, I doubt they do less than 45MPH), paying for a crew to sit out in Greenport for the 4+ hours mentioned (or paying for a deadheading crew's transportation), etc.

All this at a time when we are in a time of "budget crisis."

There may be some homes being built on the North Fork, but there is too much land preserved east of Yaphank to consider it serious commuting territory (Pine Barrens, farmland/wineries, land trusts, etc.) And really, how many of these homes are lived in year round AND have people that commute to New York everyday?

If the theory of opening another commuter agency for east end service was ever tried, it would be held up in the courts for years. First off, the MTA would have to sell the line, because letting any engineer/conductor not on the LIRR Engineer's or Conductor's roster operate a passenger train over their lines is a violation of their union contracts. If they sell the line, then they violate their contract with the freight company and God knows what else.

Jay

I don't think there is anywhere near the ridership east of KO as their is on
the south fork east of Speonk, yet there is no terminal or overnight
layover east of Speonk.
To lay up a train at Greenport would require a layover facility for the
crew and that may well mean a hotel in which to take rest, people to do
the inspection and servicing of the engine and cars including a clean out
of debries from the outbound trip, facilities for at least water and probably
a host of other things that I have not thought of.
The only thing that has been mentioned on here that makes any sense to
me on here would be adding a second set of equipment to provide for an
increase in the number of trains operated and I do not know of present
ridership would justify that. Probably a couple of more trips to Riverhead
could be justified but not so sure about Greenport.
It is quite obvious that the Montauk Branch all the way out serves a higher
number of regular riders (commuters) and in addition more occasional
ridership as well. I think there is much more winter business on the
Montauk end than there was a few years ago although it has been several
years since I have ridden either line.
The last I knew, the Montauk line was in far better shape too, I believe it
is still mostly 65 MPH territory. Any increase in service to Greenport
should be matched by an increase in service to Montauk as well.
Just remember, it costs money and plenty of it to set up additional over-
night layover points and I do not think it is necessary. It would not be
worth the costs involved.
Noel Weaver

First and yes this is sarcasim, we had a few inches of snow here on the North Fork, and AMAZING the train is running!

It is clear that many people posting on this thread do not get it when it comes to the need for service east of KO. In Riverhead Town there are huge new Housing Developments going up all around and in particular the Sound Avenue Corrider, Riverhead Town has had the largest population gains on the East End. How does the LIRR respond ?, by having only one station in Riverhead Town (in downtown Riverhead), while the Calverton Station site sits very close to all this new development. Remember here in Southold Town we have three stations.

The Tanger Outlet Complex is the largest single year round tourist draw (yes, tourist) on the East End and taken as a whole it is the largest single employer on the East End. The LIRR tracks run right behind it, gee do you think a station might make sence, of course it would and it would be a HUGE traffic generator. You and I may not think of taking a train to a mall, BUT tourists do, so much so that Tanger Charters it's own Buses that runs daily between NYC and Tanger (and no it is not Sunrise, Tanger uses the Shortline Co.). The marketing manager at Tanger has called the LIRR the most uncooperative company that it has ever tried to work with.
In addition to the Tourist draw, many employees would also use this service.

Further many of the people who know live in Southold Town are "regular" riders into the city not "daily", and the LIRR fails to win over the smallest percentage of them. This is why Sunrise Express is carrying record passenger loads, and running sometimes up to 5 Busses for a single run year round.

Again what ever costs are invloved with improving our schedules, SHOULD BE covcered by the millons of Realty Tax Dollars that Riverhead Town and Southold Town send to the MTA each year.

as I will said before DERMODY must GO!

Ken

Does anyone know what the fare is going to be for us Zone 14 riders?

Sunise express already has a built in subsidy called the Interstate Highway System. Since the establishment of the Interstate Highway System, there is not one passenger train in this country that has become a worthwhile alternative.

You said it yourself. There is one station located in the Town of Riverhead. Do you honestly think that most employees of Tanger Outlet work that far away from the mall that they would hop on a train to get to work? Of course not. They'll get in their car, park right behind the store they work for and go. It would probably take more driving time and effort for these employees to take their car to the station, take a train, then walk to their store.

This scheme may have worked in the 1920's, (replace horse and buggy with automobiles) but not anymore.

Jay

Isn't it funny that once a topic is posted concerning the Ronkonkoma-Greenport stretch, the emails come fast and furious?

The LIRR is known for having constant service, so it makes sense that we are always up in arms when we mention the minimal service supplied on this line. Living in Philly, we are used to SEPTA foolishly running trains every hour on lines that hardly warrant it.

The LIRR does not want to be bothered with this line. The line is the complete opposite of the Huntington-Port Jefferson line. Straight, flat, and mininmal grade crossings.

If you run it, they will come. No doubt about it.

peconicstation wrote:It is clear that many people posting on this thread do not get it when it comes to the need for service east of KO.

The only thing that is clear is that you do not understand the political dynamic of your own community. I suggest you take a look at documents like the SEEDS study and you'll understand EXACTLY why only 200 passengers per day ride the Greenport Scoot.

1) Many of your neighbors do not want additional train service. They fear that they will become like the Hamptons and many of your neighbors would rather shoot themselves than live in such an "atmosphere". The SEEDS study likes low capacity modes like minibuses, taxis, and bikes...oh, and more Scoot like trains. They don't want to move lots of people because it could make the North Folk "too attractive".

2) Public transportation is very limited on the East End. When Suffolk is ready to add capacity on the S92, then maybe the railroad will have a means of distributing people who work at places like Tanger.

3) You may not like those seasonal residents, but they do have an effect on your tax base. In addition, the MTA was created to pool resources and therefore the opinions of people not living in your area count. The East End cannot support its own transit system. NYC could, but the service levels would be much lower.

If you feel this strongly about the issue, start to change your neighbors first. When you can silence the small, but powerful opponents of public transport, the rest of us will help you get your additional trains. However, you are going to have to have more than 200 people fighting for your cause.

There were talks between Suffolk County and the LIRR concerning a new transit operating agency out east. Not just for the North Fork but South Fork as well. That doesn't mean anything will happen. I don't think Suffolk County has any idea what it takes to run a railroad, but that doesn't matter in politics.

The only operating union on the LIRR with that requires the LIRR to use its members is the BLE (Engineers). The BLE contract used to be interpreted by the LIRR in such a way as that any train rolling on the LIRR had to have an LIRR Engineer. Even when Amtrak wanted to operate a Pt. Jeff to Albany service, Amtrak was incensed that the LIRR required them to have the train "manned" by an LIRR Engineer.

When Pataki was insisting on the LIRR leasing it's Freight Dept. to a private company, suddenly the contract was interpreted by the LIRR as though it only reffered to trains operated by the LIRR directly, and not other companies. You can see who won that fight because the LIRR hasn't run a freight train since May 1997.

The transfer agreement bars NYAR from operating passenger trains (lucky for you) which is no biggie for NYAR, because they don't want to run passenger trains anyway. But nowadays, with the new "enlightened" thinking around the LIRR, I bet they could let a separate passenger company right on the LIRR's tracks with their own train crews.

Personally, economics would prevent other passenger rail from operating on Long Island. The costs of running a railroad would prevent it. Passenger just doesn't make money.

If I'm not mistaken, the article in the BLE contract which stated that any train operating on the LIRR be operated by an engineer off the LIRR BLE roster was removed after the Memorial Day Weekend wildcat strike in 1995. The union was fined $1 million and the LIRR asked for that article to be removed in lieu of the fine. That paved the way for privatizing the freight.

All this talk of an "East End Transit Authority" or whatever you wish to call it reminds me a lot of the push for a Peconic County a few years back. Same mentality, which will no doubt give the same result. The devil is in the details.

Jay

Hi Jay..

That Article is still in the BLE contract. And was a factor in the battle between the BLE and the MTA/LIRR when privatization was proposed by the MTA/LIRR. The BLE had to give in. Consider the enormous political pressure they were under and they were against a State agency that would spend millions to get what they want. As a bone to the BLE, it was understood that any operator of the freight would be unionized and members are what unions want.

The strike you reffered to in '95 resulted in the BLE have a conditional fine of $2,000,000 levied on them. In other words, if the BLE engaged in another wildcat before 2000(before the Gubernatorial election), then the fine would be imposed. If no wildcat, then no fine. The members that participated however, had to pay a fine equal to 2 days pay for the one day strike (sounds like the Taylor Law, right?). The BLE then assessed each member of the union to spread the paid fines equally and have no one member having paid more. In addition, the union members had some minimal assessments to pay the legal costs associated with that strike. Overall, in my opinion, it was worth the costs and a successful strike. We didn't have a contract for five years and the LIRR wouldn't talk to us. It was the only way to bring them to the table and it definately did.

You have to understand something. Freight privatization wasn't done because the LIRR was going broke running it. It was completely self-sustaining under the LIRR. It was done because the State wanted it and put their considerable political muscle behind it. They have deep pockets and once they decide something is going to happen, it will happen. If the MTA wanted it back, it's going back. Forget the costs and lawsuits and all the nonsense that would bring from NYAR.

By the way, Suzie Q was a runner up for the freight...the MTA wanted Anacostia & Pacific, the LIRR wanted Suzie Q...I guess the MTA is the boss.

In addition, I would like to thank you for your very fair posts on here. There were some of your guys posting in the forum that acted like they were the first people to run freight on Long Island and we on the LIRR were all an inept bunch of knuckleheads. You never talk like that and it's pretty nice.

I have nothing bad to say about the freight crews that the LIRR had. As one of the original NYAR guys, I worked with them, and attribute a lot of what I know to them.

When I see some of the new guys come up now, I feel bad that they never got to work with them. Their "seasoned veterans" of railroading that they're learning from might only have 2 years experience on the railroad. I learned from guys with 30 or more. There's a lot more to learn in the school of hard knocks than in a classroom.

From what I always heard about those bidding on the freight concession, Anacostia & Pacific was not the high bidder money wise, but they were the only bidding company to submit a business plan, with a plan on how to grow the frieght business. That was the reason they secured the bid.

Whether Susie Q was the favorite of the LIRR, they weren't the ones selling the freight, MTA was.

Jay

Hi guys,

Liquid Camphor makes many insightful comments in these few posts. Jay, the will of the politicians is the direction the MTA and the LIRR will go.

The “Peconic County” deal was radical, secessionist, and would cost Suffolk County and New York State a lot of money. As I’ve said before, I think the “details” to my theory are in the hands of the “bean counters” in Albany. Once they’ve made the argument to the politicians that they can save money, quiet the constituency, and increase frequency of service on the affected lines, the rest of it will be history.

We’ll see.

de Don, n2qhvRMLI