Proposed PATCO Expansion

At least someone in the area wants to expand service in the City. Open house public meetings will be held:

Tuesday, January 22: Painted Bride Theater Café, 230 Vine Street

Thursday, January 24: Emanuel Evangelical Lutheran Church, 1001 South 4th Street

http://www.ridepatco.org/content.asp?pa ... number=477

News Coverage:

Philadelphia Inquirer -
PATCO extends hand to SEPTA

Courier Post -
PATCO rail expansion years away

I would like to know more about the PA-1 Expanded option.

Does anyone know of a resource for information about the subsurface profile in and around Chinatown?

Think about it: Getting from Franklin Square to Center City includes potential obstacles associated with the existing PATCO line, Ridge Avenue Spur, the RRD tunnel, and possibly even the Vine Street Expressway.

I just reviewed the Philly side part of the expansion.
And i have to say i look all of the proposed plans. I really hope that this can happen. This city could use a transportation system expansion of something.

Of these, I think PA2 offers the most benefit. Still, the city shoudl be looking at a subway to the Northeast first.

Of these, I think PA2 offers the most benefit. Still, the city shoudl be looking at a subway to the Northeast first.

Idk cant really say to much on that because this is PATCO's plan.

Of these, I think PA2 offers the most benefit. Still, the city shoudl be looking at a subway to the Northeast first.

PhillyBoy890 wrote:Idk cant really say to much on that because this is PATCO's plan.

Yes, and what PATCO should be looking at doing would be to extend the current line westward as I previously suggested, with new stations at 20th-21st/Locust, 34th/Spruce (which would be a major stop for the Univ. of PA and the hospital complex) and terminate at 40th-41st/Spruce, which would be good for students who live near Penn as well as those who work on the western end of the Penn campus.

The reason that PATCO can't go west of their existing terminus that is that it is cost-prohibitive. Because they would rely on FTA to fund it, there's no way FTA would pay for a tunnel that parallels two existing, in-service transit facilities (MFE and Green Line). That line would just siphon riders off of the existing Market street services.

PATCO posted their alternatives: http://www.patcopaexpansion.com/alternatives.html

Wallyhorse wrote:Yes, and what PATCO should be looking at doing would be to extend the current line westward as I previously suggested, with new stations at 20th-21st/Locust, 34th/Spruce (which would be a major stop for the Univ. of PA and the hospital complex) and terminate at 40th-41st/Spruce, which would be good for students who live near Penn as well as those who work on the western end of the Penn campus.

A westward extension was proposed by the DVRPC about 35 years ago. The idea was to extend the line all the way to West Phila. and connect to the P&W via the old Cardington branch. Yes, it would have parallelled the MFSE but also would have provided full one-seat east-west service.

But that was back when the FTA/local split was at least 80/20 and nearly all of the Cardington ROW was still rescueable. Even under those happier conditions I'm not sure the cost could have been justified. I have to agree that a shorter line that doesn't provide major new functionality would stand almost no chance of being built given today's transit-hostile grant levels.

In looking at the Center City map on the alternatives website, it would appear that one of the alternatives would route PATCO through the old Reading Railroad's "Pennsylvania Avenue Subway." I was under the impression that this stretch of former ROW was sold off in pieces, as there are numerous companies (???) that park vehicles there now. Am I wrong?

The subway essentially starts just east of Broad street at the old Packard building. From there it goes under the Inquirer building. The underground area is still accessible and is used as a loading dock and parking, some rail is still down there, but it's not really open for trains. From there the cut is still intact to about 18th by the Community College. After that Whole Foods is built overtop of the cut and I believe has parking underneith. Just west of there is more parking for police at the station located right there. Then the cut is covered by Pennsylvania Avenue which is completely vacant and fenced off on the east side. The tunnel extends several blocks and meets with the B&O tunnel that comes from the river under the art museum. Freight trains still run on that now single track line. The two ROWs parrallel each other and rise to ground level. The B&O line still connects over the river and has a connection to the NEC.

thegivenup wrote:The subway essentially starts just east of Broad street at the old Packard building. From there it goes under the Inquirer building. The underground area is still accessible and is used as a loading dock and parking, some rail is still down there, but it's not really open for trains. From there the cut is still intact to about 18th by the Community College. After that Whole Foods is built overtop of the cut and I believe has parking underneith. Just west of there is more parking for police at the station located right there. Then the cut is covered by Pennsylvania Avenue which is completely vacant and fenced off on the east side. The tunnel extends several blocks and meets with the B&O tunnel that comes from the river under the art museum. Freight trains still run on that now single track line. The two ROWs parrallel each other and rise to ground level. The B&O line still connects over the river and has a connection to the NEC.

But, I don't see any of PATCO's plans using any of the ROW mentioned above. So, I would refute the original point that it will use the old Reading ROW

PA-1 extended shows the Subway-Surface system as being extended either over or under the RRD tunnel. I've been told that this is not possible because both tunnels are at the same (or nearly the same) depth, and other underground circumstances prevent it.

Does anyone know for certain? If true, why is the DRPA wasting money studying an infeasible option?

Bill R. wrote:Does anyone know for certain? If true, why is the DRPA wasting money studying an infeasible option?

Well, I'm quite sure that the DRPA folks are cogent enough about the tunnel alignment that it at least passes the back of the envelope test. Even SEPTA can pass that test--it's just things requiring say putting two and two together (*) that throw them.

Now the Subway-Surface Lines have to pass over the Broad Street Line at 15th Street and under the Market-Frankford at Juniper. Roughly speaking, that would be about the same level as the railroad, or maybe a little higher. I haven't seen the specifics of their planned alignment, but if you go north under Juniper, you might be able to continue up and go over the railroad there: the railroad is pretty deep at Market East.

*--see page 23 of http://dvarp.org/svm/formal_comments1.pdf (PDF file) for documentation of the fatal flaw in SEPTA's Schuylkill Valley plan.

Extension of the Green Line ROW north of Juniper could clear the commuter rail tunnel if the Juniper station were to be slightly regraded. It is currently on a slight upslope. At its current grading, an extended trolley tunnel would bump into the bottom of the commuter rail tunnel. If the Juniper station were to be graded on a slight downslope and shortened a little bit, a trolley tunnel could clear the commuter tunnel.