Proposed PATCO Expansion

Has anyone suggested that if they're going to extend the S/S to Front Street, building a tunnel under the Delaware for the eventual realignment of the bridge line?

One idea I had for this plan would be to switch the current MFSE tunnel over to the trolleys, and build a new tunnel for the MFSE which would have limited stops downtown (2nd, 11th & 15th only). In effect, the trolleys would be used for local travel while the MFSE would be for cross city travel, similar to Chicago.

jfrey40535 wrote:Has anyone suggested that if they're going to extend the S/S to Front Street, building a tunnel under the Delaware for the eventual realignment of the bridge line?

One idea I had for this plan would be to switch the current MFSE tunnel over to the trolleys, and build a new tunnel for the MFSE which would have limited stops downtown (2nd, 11th & 15th only). In effect, the trolleys would be used for local travel while the MFSE would be for cross city travel, similar to Chicago.

I believe this was the original plan, before the PTC ran out of money and truncated the SS lines at juniper.

Has there been any news on this front... Their website is largely barren of updates, and I haven't seen any news in local media on this.

PhillyBoy890 wrote:

Of these, I think PA2 offers the most benefit. Still, the city shoudl be looking at a subway to the Northeast first.

Idk cant really say to much on that because this is PATCO's plan.

Although PATCO has no intentions on building north... Their charter does allow them to build anywhere in the city.

i heard the patco ideally wanted to expand along delaware ave all the way down to the naval yard.

here's the link to the expansion plans:

http://www.patcopaexpansion.com/alternatives.html

any of these options would be fantastic

i just hope i live long enough to use it

i'm 39 btw

If they were to extend the SS tunnel, would there be any point at which a portal could be built to facilitate an eastern trolley network (Delaware Ave, others)?

I'm really surprised its even being discussed.

Speaking of PATCO, I read that they were going to be sending out 6 cars at a time for a total rebuilding.

Have they started it yet? Are there any drawings of what they'll look like when completed?

PATCO added a new alternative, PA-3: http://www.patcopaexpansion.com/alternatives.html

I'm still curious about the gauge issue. I see switching engines as far north as washington ave fairly frequently, so I don't see how they could convert the Del Av tracks to broad gauge without eliminating freights.

good point

i have seen them even further north, up to the 95/676 on ramp

tinmad dog wrote:

I'm still curious about the gauge issue.

It isn't only the issue of gauge. The Subway Surface lines use traditional streetcar profile rail. The Delaware Avenue median is standard T-Rail. So even adding another single rail to create a 5' 2.25" trackbed won't work. Unless you want to replace all SS vehicle wheels with hybrid profile wheels.

It has also never been clear to me how the single track found in the median would support frequent service. Even with 15 minute headways, you would need passing sidings for the southern leg of the service. The median as it currently exists doesn't allow for passing sidings. To say nothing of an extention to the Sports Complex or former Navy Yard.

Absent a significant, high-dollar solution, use of the existing rail infrastructure along Delaware Avenue requires a light rail vehicle that is incompatible with the existing Subway Surface Lines.

It seems that the motivation is behind the new option is to identify the cheapest way out. If so, why can't the DRPA operate or at least fund a heritage operation along Delaware Avenue? Build the Spring Garden Station loop as shown and have vintage vehicles operate along Delaware Avenue. It seems to work for the "F" line in San Francisco. And as a heritage operation, it might be free from some ADA regulations.