Proposed PATCO Expansion

I'm rather inexperienced, what subway tunnels exist in Philly that aren't used and what subways where proposed? and does a map exist of them?

phillyscooter wrote:I dont think its a bad idea to create more opportunties for reverse commutes and visits to NJ from PA, including Camden, if we are trying to act like a region. I often think gee it would be nice to go to Haddonfield to wander or Collingswood, but then say nah, dont want to drive and bus to patco or train to patco is inconvenient. Just suggesting opportunities, but I do agree that some sort of loop completion could create a benefit for greater center city for diagonal trips (8/th Locust area, to 20/Arch, etc)

If we want to act like a region, then DRPA should contract with SEPTA to run the service so it can operate more like the washington metro, rather than a loop, it could be a through line, and the tunnel could be shared. for example, the city could build the roxborough line, as propoposed in 1913 by A Meritt Taylor except tie it into the PATCO tunnel via 20th st. I believe something like that woudl add more utility than the proposed loop. a loop on arch just isn't THAT useful, if you extend PATCO to west market, you've already covered most of your bases. the only missing link is city hall, reached by an easy transfer to the el.

Isn't the DRPA supposed to release a study or a report or something soon? Does anyone know when

WaitinginSJ wrote:Isn't the DRPA supposed to release a study or a report or something soon? Does anyone know when

They are currently studying the 2004 study.

Here are some things that I heard. First, PATCO and their consultants will be presenting the South Jersey and the Philly PATCO projects at a meeting of the South Jersey Development Council this week. I understand that they are going to discuss where they stand with the projects and which alignments they are considering. I know that they have the ridership estimates and the costs already done. The main decision is whether the projects can achieve the numbers necessary to qualify for New Starts, or whether they have to find local $$$ for construction and operation.

Second, I know in Philly that PATCO has met with SEPTA a few times about the project and that SEPTA is listening. The rumor is that SEPTA might want to run the Girard Avenue trolley down Delaware Ave. when PennDOT reconstructs the Girard Avenue exit on I-95.

FatPants wrote:Second, I know in Philly that PATCO has met with SEPTA a few times about the project and that SEPTA is listening. The rumor is that SEPTA might want to run the Girard Avenue trolley down Delaware Ave. when PennDOT reconstructs the Girard Avenue exit on I-95.

they have plans (and funding I believe) to add a turnaround at Frankford and Delaware as part of that project, which would fit in with this longer term goal.

Any news from the South Jersey Development Council meeting yet?

WaitinginSJ wrote:Any news from the South Jersey Development Council meeting yet?

question: where in Philadelphia do you wish PATCO went? (ignoring he Jersey side extensions for now)

I would like to see a 30th street or other RR connection, but that's not in the plans as of now. I do like the idea though of continuing the subway to surface trolleys. I'd also like to see easier access to the sport stadiums and maybe a University connection as well. I think the improved University City connection would be a hit for students traveling between Philly and NJ.

P.S. I heard they presented yesterday and was curious to know what they presented and if any kind of conclusions were made

Here's what was said at the South Jersey Development Council meeting. First, in South Jersey, they said that they will be making some sort of announcement within 60 days about which alignment they picked. They mentioned that they were considering a BRT alignment because the capital costs are too high. They also said that all of the alternatives have about the same ridership and that Rowan has been pushing for the Conrail alternative.

In Philly they showed the three alternatives. None of them go to 30th Street by the way. They were all light rail on embedded street rail. They said that the car they were designing to was the Skoda car in Portland. One goes from Franklin Square to Columbus Blvd. The northern part of the line goes up to the Girard Avenue MFL station, also connecting with the Route 15 trolley. The southern part goes to Pier 70 but they could go to the Navy Yard and loop to Pattison in the future. The second alignment goes on-street along Market Street and loops just east of City Hall using Juniper, Filbert and 12th Street. The third alignment goes from 8th and Market to Columbus Blvd. via Franklin Square (I think via 7th, Cherry and Race). They didn't have a timetable for the Philly piece but said they were getting close. They eliminated the Subway-Surface trolley extensions due to cost and ADA.

I'm disappointed, but not surprised about the subway to surface line being eliminated due to cost and ADA. As for the BRT alignment, I as a resident within the study area don't think people would really use it. People are generally anti-riding the public bus. I can see college students using it if it's cheap, but that's about it. Personally I think that the anti-rail NIMBY's will push for the BRT, but none of them will use it. I do however see it as a good temporary solution while they wait for the funds, just not a good permanent solution.

FatPants wrote:Here's what was said at the South Jersey Development Council meeting. First, in South Jersey, they said that they will be making some sort of announcement within 60 days about which alignment they picked. They mentioned that they were considering a BRT alignment because the capital costs are too high. They also said that all of the alternatives have about the same ridership and that Rowan has been pushing for the Conrail alternative.

In Philly they showed the three alternatives. They said that the car they were designing to was the Skoda car in Portland. They didn't have a timetable for the Philly piece but said they were getting close. They eliminated the Subway-Surface trolley extensions due to cost and ADA.

Why do they appear to be so much more serious about a Philadelphia side project than one in NJ (I ask rhetorically)? A trolley project on Delaware Avenue isn't likely to meet FTA guidelines for funding. And it is not going to remove vehicles from the bridges, something that was supposed to be the main motivation for the DRPA to begin this latest of (the infinite number of) studies conducted for South Jersey Rail expansion.

WaitinginSJ wrote: As for the BRT alignment, I as a resident within the study area don't think people would really use it.

Certainly very few people will use BRT if the system is designed into the highway medians. It's always been unlikely that potential passengers would choose to use a rail system (a higher quality service) in the highway medians, so why would they be inclined to use a bus? Maybe FatPants can elaborate, but I can't see building a BRT system on the railroad right of way without spending some serious dollars. I doubt that BRT could co-exist with rail freight, so that means that all Cumberland County freight traffic would need to be rerouted via Winslow Junction, an expensive proposition.

WaitinginSJ wrote: I do however see it as a good temporary solution while they wait for the funds, just not a good permanent solution.

There isn't anything good or temporary about it. Once that option is chosen, it's all that will ever be built. BRT doesn't offer the quality of service that rail transit does, at least in winter climates.

Like so many situations in our society these days, the power structure will fill in the check-mark box and declare "Mission Accomplished". They won't be waiting for funds because there won't be any funds forthcoming as the BRT project will be viewed as South Jersey's "turn in the barrel".

The only positive in a BRT system is the possibility of a one-seat ride to Philadelphia. Having said that, it is worth noting that DRPA and NJ Transit don't even have the nerve to force the issue of dedicating the the outside lanes on the Ben Franklin Bridge to bus-only traffic in the current (supposedly pro-transit) environment. With a system this compromised, I don't understand how BRT could be considered an alternative that potential passengers would readily embrace in lieu of rail.

Bill R. wrote:The only positive in a BRT system is the possibility of a one-seat ride to Philadelphia.

I thought any PATCO extension would neccesarily open up a one seat ride into Philadelphia. Or are we swinging back toward "Riverline Extension" so far as the alternatives are concerned? I can't imagine it'd be that hard to adapt a Riverline-like operation to PATCO style vehicles. We should look into a 'light metro' idea if a fully grade separated PATCO extension is not workable. New vehicles wouldn't exactly be difficult to order capable of using an overhead wire and third rail power supply.

As for the Philadelphia Waterfront trolley I'm not sure if anyone noticed, but Plzen in the Czech Republic is operating three Skoda streetcars which Washington DC ordered. It probably would not be hard for the DRPA to get them, regauge them, and operate them on a loop from the new Rt15 loop at Delaware Ave down to Pier 70 or wherever they want to go.

Why fully grade separated? The notion that third rail powered lines cannot have grade crossings is a canard being used to artificially decrease the competitive value of the conrail right-of-way vs. the highway median routes. The Metro-North Harlem Line north of White Plains is a third rail powered service all the way to Southeast station with over 20 grade crossings and frequent service.

crusader rabbit wrote:Why fully grade separated? The notion that third rail powered lines cannot have grade crossings is a canard being used to artificially decrease the competitive value of the conrail right-of-way vs. the highway median routes. The Metro-North Harlem Line north of White Plains is a third rail powered service all the way to Southeast station with over 20 grade crossings and frequent service.

The Vineland Secondary was at-grade with 3rd rail until the end of passenger service. But, if the money is there to separate the line, then why not? Give the operators one less thing to worry about, especially if the route through Rowan is chosen.

Any system will not necessarily be a one seat ride to Philly due to capacity constraints on the Ben.