• No Hope for Newtown

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

  by ChrisinAbington
 
OK, but again IF the line was up to par (which is a big "if"), what kind of business would move to the corridor to just use freight operations? Don't we have plenty of brownfields already with excellent rail access that would be a better fit? Also, what exactly would have stopped a freight carrier in the past, besides lack of demand? Yes, it would be nice if some mysterious well-endowed freight line did pony up the money to get the line operating again, but come-on? Why here, and for whom?
This isn't the chicken and egg scenario, that line died and the freight wasn't there to prop it up, unlike the Quakertown portion of the Bethlehem main line or Stony Creek.
  by dreese_us
 
New Age Industries is located in Southampton and they manufacture flexible plastic tubing. They could receive plastic resin by rail. There is an existing right of way to the plant, just need to relay rail and put a switch back in.
  by ChrisinAbington
 
username2 wrote:Again, though, it seems like you are moving toward public subsidy of private freight deliveries to plants along the former Newtown line. I think you would find that exceedingly few taxpayers would agree that this is a justified expense.
Actually I believe the hope is a private operator will pick up all the associated costs of refubishing/making a connection, and that small section of track will be better preserved. I don't disagree that this would be nice if it happened, although probably not very realistic from a profit standpoint (in the freight carrier's view). Would the thought be that the freight carrier would further restore portions of the line up to Newtown (out of the kindness of their hearts), or just the fact that somebody uses the line would be enough for a PR coup?
  by dreese_us
 
username2 wrote:
dreese_us wrote:New Age Industries is located in Southampton and they manufacture flexible plastic tubing. They could receive plastic resin by rail. There is an existing right of way to the plant, just need to relay rail and put a switch back in.
I looked up the location of New Age Industries on Google Maps. It looks like you would bring freight in via the Trenton Cut-off and then switch on to the former Newtown line for the last half-mile or so.

So my question is why hasn't New Age Industries installed the relay rail and switch in order to enable freight deliveries? I take this to mean that they have no desire to have items delivered by rail. Perhaps you have a different interpretation.

Again, though, it seems like you are moving toward public subsidy of private freight deliveries to plants along the former Newtown line. I think you would find that exceedingly few taxpayers would agree that this is a justified expense.
The last customer to receive freight service in that building was Stephen Leedom Carpet Company, think it closed in the mid 70's. New Age Industries located there long after service ended.

In the end, before Conrail transferred the line over to Septa, you could find a switcher with anywhere up to eight boxcars. I am not sure how often they served the line, maybe once a week or as needed.

It may be possible to serve the line from the Trenton Cut-off, but there is that small problem of grade separation. When the line was connected at Fox Chase, it didn't make sense to build a connection to the Cut-off. Now it may make sense to get the north end of the line reactivated. This could be done with the help of Norfolk Southern and grants from the state of Pennsylvania, to help keep jobs in the state.
  by Patrick Boylan
 
I think it's unlikely that any private operator will invest enough of their own money to get freight running to Newtown, and I don't think there's enough existing online industry to support a succesful operation. ChrisinAbington asks if we already have plenty of brownfields already that have rail access, yep, I think we do, so we probably should be trying to encourage industry to head back to those brownfields.

One excuse I've heard for why we don't have service to Reading and Allentown-Bethlehem is problems getting the railroad to allow passenger trains to mess up their freight trains. So it might not be such a good idea 20 years from now to see a freight operator entrenched in the way of Newtown passenger trains.

However if it's a choice between 2 streaks of rust through the weeds and a freight train once a week, I'd rather have the freight operation. But just as I believe that a freight operation can help preserve a right of way, I also feel it's not fair to say that a bike trail necessarily makes it No Hope for Newtown, there are already plenty of reasons why this thread's title is appropriate without having to make bicycle riders into the bringers of doom.
Folks have said that no rail to trail has ever become a trail to rail, but remember that those rails disappeared for a reason. Maybe that reason, or probably more correctly, those reasons, still exist, and the bicycles are not what's keeping us from restoring the trains.
  by swedishmeatball83
 
gardendance wrote:Folks have said that no rail to trail has ever become a trail to rail, but remember that those rails disappeared for a reason. Maybe that reason, or probably more correctly, those reasons, still exist, and the bicycles are not what's keeping us from restoring the trains.
It is politics, nothing more. The trail went in as political move.

From what I have read, SEPTA told Conrail to cease all freight operations so they could spruce up the line in '81 (SEPTA bought the line in the 70s, so it was theirs already). Plus, as a transit operation, you cannot mix traditional RR and transit operations.

Now, that was then. Fast forward to 2010. The line has been off the radar for quite some time and SEPTA has tried their darnest to keep it buried and out of the public view. However, spur some local businesses along the line that freight by rail is cheaper than truck (and find a private operator to run it: NS, CSX, East Penn), it gets more trucks off the road and improves that town's economy. Conrail did this with the Stony Creek branch. Owned by SEPTA and dead, Conrail pitched in all the $$$ and restored the line. The same can easily be done for Newtown. Where there is money to be made, it will happen.
  by swedishmeatball83
 
username2 wrote:So my question is why hasn't New Age Industries installed the relay rail and switch in order to enable freight deliveries? I take this to mean that they have no desire to have items delivered by rail. Perhaps you have a different interpretation.
Yes, the more simply one. I am sure the folks at New Age who work there now were probably not around when train service ended nearly 30 years ago. Contact them now, ask them if the are interested in freight service.
username2 wrote:Again, though, it seems like you are moving toward public subsidy of private freight deliveries to plants along the former Newtown line. I think you would find that exceedingly few taxpayers would agree that this is a justified expense.
No, public subsidy of private freight deliveries is wrong and nowhere where I believe pistolpete is going here. Where did you think of such a ludicrous suggestion, unless your posts are meant to invoke controversy? This operation would be no different than freight service on the Doylestown branch or Quakertown lines. When/if passenger trains come back to the Newtown and Quakertown lines, it will not be difficult to schedule both operations accordingly (they did it successfully for over 100 years up to 1981).

We are reinventing the wheel here, gentlemen. I think I see why the railway industry continues to flounder in this country. These posts alone are disheartening.
  by nickrapak
 
The problem is that it will be uneconomical to rebuild the line to Bethayres, and all but impossible to build the line such that it connects to the Morrisville Line. There is about an 80 foot drop down, and no real estate to put the long ramp needed.
  by limejuice
 
Actually, it's about a 35' difference in grade, and there's plenty of land for a ramp in the southeast quadrant.
  by dreese_us
 
In one of Septa's proposals to restore service to Newtown, it was to build a connection to the Cut-off and run a shuttle between a transfer station at the R2 and Newtown. There is room for a ramp, but who wants a two hour commute, transferring to the R2 at Hatboro?

The other problem, where to perform maintenance on the diesel equipment. Now if you could run express service from County line Road through Norristown, into 30th Street Station, might have a chance. Would there be enough riders in Bucks County to support such service? I could see this line pulling riders from other lines if it makes limited stops. I could also see riders paying a premium for express service, provided it does not take any longer to get into the city.
  by pistolpete66
 
nickrapak wrote:The problem is that it will be uneconomical to rebuild the line to Bethayres
According to who? If there are some customers who want rail service and a freight company wants the business, it will be very economical to restore the line---even to 30mph. Money talks. If that was the attitude, the Stony Creek line--which is virtually identical to the Newtown line concerning the age and rail weight used, butt with many more curve---would never have been given a second life. Look at the track on the Stony Creek line. CSX only replaced bad rail and ties. No heavy rail anywhere, and jointed everywhere, but it gets the job done...and that is a through route.
dreese_us wrote:In one of Septa's proposals to restore service to Newtown, it was to build a connection to the Cut-off and run a shuttle between a transfer station at the R2 and Newtown. There is room for a ramp, but who wants a two hour commute, transferring to the R2 at Hatboro?
Dreese, that proposal connecting to the Warminster line was a fleeting thing suggested briefly by a politically sheepoish and disconnected SEPTA in 1995. It was done to please MontCo and Bryn Athyn, the latter who later went on record saying they had no problem with the train whatsoever, just did not want huge high tension wires strung overhead - see article from June 1995 (NOTE: Bryn Athyn's concerns were justfied, as SEPTA was apparently thinking of connecting with PECO to string wire, which would have led to huge spider poles like those found on NS's Trenton Cutoff west of Fort Washington instead of less obtrusive poles like those found on the Fox Chase line)
Image
If this does not call into question SEPTA's poor planning skills, what does? And this was 15 years ago.

It was a dumb idea as it made the ride much longer. If the lines comes back, forget diesel. Only the folks that are forced to take public transit will deal with the change of trains at Fox Chase. The line needs to be electrified for it to get decent ridership; otherwise, riders will flock to the Warminster and West Trenton lines, which had been happening even in the 70s.

For now, we need to address the crippled infrastructure (see below):
Image
Image
  by jb9152
 
pistolpete66 wrote:
nickrapak wrote:The problem is that it will be uneconomical to rebuild the line to Bethayres
According to who?
Well, according to reality. If it could have been profitable all these years, or could be profitable now, someone would have stepped forward to engage in that "economical" process already. That no one has is telling us something.
  by dreese_us
 
jb9152 wrote:
pistolpete66 wrote:
nickrapak wrote:The problem is that it will be uneconomical to rebuild the line to Bethayres
According to who?
Well, according to reality. If it could have been profitable all these years, or could be profitable now, someone would have stepped forward to engage in that "economical" process already. That no one has is telling us something.
Wrong! There was freight service on the line until Conrail transferred the property to Septa. At the time, a short line operator may have provided better service, which could have worked to build the freight business. Septa owns the line, they were the ones that allowed the freight business to be abandoned. Septa is also the entity that put up the roadblock to restoration of service.

If I remember correctly, there were two RFP's put out for private operators to run the line as a shuttle. I think one actually planned on running into 30th Street Station, using Conrail tracks. Even with these proposals submitted, Septa again put up a few more roadblocks.

Found this link with articles from the early to mid 90's, pretty much explains it all.

http://articles.mcall.com/keyword/jerry-kane/featured/2
  by dreese_us
 
In depth proposals from 1993, The Delaware Valley Rail Passenger

SEPTA Receives Newtown Rail Proposals
by John Pawson
Both bidders who on April 12 presented SEPTA with private-sector plans to
serve the Newtown Line described those plans at a May 13 meeting of the
Newtown Township Transportation Advisory Committee. They are: National
Interurban Coalition, composed of Rail Easton and other companies, who were
represented at the Newtown meeting by Rodney Fisk; and Northeast
Transportation and Development Corporation, a joint venture of Newtown
Short Line and other firms, who were represented by Robert Regensberger.
Each bidder proposed to operate through peak-direction service between
Newtown and center-city Philadelphia. The two groups voiced their belief
that only a through service would be marketable. We received the impression
that some SEPTA staffers are apprehensive about private operation over the
in-service R8 line because they fear problems from unionized SEPTA workers
if that is done.
NIC proposes to receive two two-car train-sets from the Duewag type 628
production line set up for German Federal Railway, but modified for US
service. Later, four more sets of the twin double-truck cars would arrive,
along with back-up RDCs from VIA Rail Canada.
By Spring 1994, NIC would operate the initial two-train service between
Newtown and Suburban Station, using the RailWorks routing now operated by
RRD. Fisk said that the low-pollution engines of the Duewag trains are
already certified by the U.S. Bureau of Mines [for tunnel use]. Running
closed-door over the in-service R8 trackage, the end-to-end travel time is
expected to be 55 minutes, Off-peak service would operate as a shuttle
north of Fox Chase.
Operation of excursions between Suburban Station and the factory outlets in
Reading is a key part of NIC's economic plan. Later, additional trains
would operate on the Quakertown line, ultimately to Allentown, assuming
support from LANTA, the public transit agency in that area.
With a $32.8 million investment, NIC expects to begin service on all of
those routes. The $1.2 million committed to the Newtown Line by Bucks
County would be leveraged to $36 million using Federal and state
components. The mileage-driven Federal capital subsidy would be sufficient
to retire the privately funded part of the capital requirements. The
$300,000 annual payment by SEPTA in lieu of its current Fox Chase-Newtown
bus losses would become a contingent reserve, probably not needed to cover
operating costs.
NTDC proposes a different operating method for Newtown service. SEPTA push-
pull cars and electric locomotives would be used in conjunction with
otherwise-obtained diesel locomotives. Operations would follow the current
R8 service between Fox Chase and 30th Street Station: and like the NIC
proposal, there would be no stops in currently-served areas outside Center
City. The electric locomotive would be attached at some point on the Fox
Chase line. Three or four peak round trips would be run, the latter number
if Conrail keeps intact the double-track of the R8 line between Newt-own
and Cheltenham Junctions. Also like the NIC proposal, fares and tickets
would resemble SEPTA's.
Moderator Eli Cooper noted that mandates to reduce automobile commuting
will induce more center city employees to ride SEPTA trains. In order to
make the most of limited commuter parking, he urged recognition by SEPTA of
an "all lines running" policy. Regensberger suggested that SEPTA needs
outside pressure, given the history of slow progress toward privatization
of a service which has lapsed for over ten years.

Newtown Service Via Willow Grove?
In December, SEPTA planners examined a scheme for diverting the Newtown
Line service away from the well-known landed estate near Bryn Athyn. This
concept would create a Newtown service which on a map would resemble a
letter "z" turned on its end. As its cross-link, the concept would use two
miles of the east-west Conrail Morrisville Line between the parallel north-
south R2 Warminster and R8 Newtown lines.
Thus under this concept, the Newtown service would duplicate the R2 service
between Center City and a point 1 mile north of Willow Grove, then turn
east along the Morrisville Line, then northeast to include the outer end of
the Newtown Line: stations County Line through Newtown. Trackage north of
Fox Chase in the Pennypack Creek valley presumably would be abandoned in
order to end opposition from the Bryn Athyn billionaires.
It's a fascinating, if desperate, connect-the-dots exercise. For one
thing, it politically props up the increasingly dubious Cross-County Metro
plan by using two miles of that route's intended right of way. It ignores
the slowness of the Warminster Line and its reliability problem which
results from its mostly-single-track construction through built-up areas.
Land around the two railroad intersection points is mostly developed, so
ramps would be needed to bring the lower-level SEPTA lines up to the
Conrail grade. In alignment terms, the connection north of Willow Grove is
described as a "jughandle".
The worst realization in this appeasement scheme comes when one estimates
the resulting Suburban Station-Newtown travel time. If the jughandle and
ramps can survive NIMBYism and are built, the running time would be at
least 70 minutes. Without the jughandle, a passenger transfer would be
needed; and travel time increases to at least 75 minutes. Compare that to
the 55 minutes of the private proposal to run via Fox Chase.
  by jb9152
 
dreese_us wrote: Wrong! There was freight service on the line until Conrail transferred the property to Septa. At the time, a short line operator may have provided better service, which could have worked to build the freight business. Septa owns the line, they were the ones that allowed the freight business to be abandoned. Septa is also the entity that put up the roadblock to restoration of service.

If I remember correctly, there were two RFP's put out for private operators to run the line as a shuttle. I think one actually planned on running into 30th Street Station, using Conrail tracks. Even with these proposals submitted, Septa again put up a few more roadblocks.

Found this link with articles from the early to mid 90's, pretty much explains it all.

http://articles.mcall.com/keyword/jerry-kane/featured/2
I don't see any indication in what you posted that any short line freight operators have come forward in the intervening years to request track access from SEPTA. The private operators' proposals were for passenger service. I'm talking about what others are discussing here - the voluntary return of a short line freight operator to the line because they're drawn by the possibility of profit. That has *not* happened.
  • 1
  • 43
  • 44
  • 45
  • 46
  • 47
  • 50