All Things Empire Builder

From what I've been able to gather, the Empire Builder became Amtrak's first all-Superliner train in 1981. Does anyone know the correct consist for this first all-Superliner Empire Builder?

The Empire Builder was the first Amtrak long distance train to receive Superliners. The first Empire Builder with Superliner equipment departed Chicago on October 28, 1979. The consist was: 2 F40s, 1 baggage car, 1 ex-ATSF transition car, 2 Superliner coaches, 1 Superliner diner, and 1 Superliner sleeper. The train would, on occasion (every third trip at the start), use a heritage sleeper (ahead of the transition car) when a Superliner sleeper was not available, which was the case at the start.

vermontanan wrote:The Empire Builder was the first Amtrak long distance train to receive Superliners. The first Empire Builder with Superliner equipment departed Chicago on October 28, 1979. The consist was: 2 F40s, 1 baggage car, 1 ex-ATSF transition car, 2 Superliner coaches, 1 Superliner diner, and 1 Superliner sleeper. The train would, on occasion (every third trip at the start), use a heritage sleeper (ahead of the transition car) when a Superliner sleeper was not available, which was the case at the start.

Amazing how this train has transformed over the years, especially in suvival as a daily train and having three Superliner sleepers east of Spokane during peak season, let alone being split/combined at Spokane with one section for Portland and for Seattle. It's been touted that this train often is one of the more successful long distance trains, like the Auto Train, where its overall losses are not as great as some of the other long distance trains.

Also, only this train and the Lake Shore Limited have such a unique operations of split and combining like this. Course the Lake Shore has had some ups and downs with this combo at Albany for its New York and Boston section, whereas the Empire Builder has been more consistent.

And now the future of the Empire Builder could have a Superliner Diner-Lounge for the Portland section and perhaps additional sleepers. Appears its re-launch has launched a resurgence for this train, even if the re-launch has not always been consistent with the advertised!

vermontanan wrote:The Empire Builder was the first Amtrak long distance train to receive Superliners. The first Empire Builder with Superliner equipment departed Chicago on October 28, 1979. The consist was: 2 F40s, 1 baggage car, 1 ex-ATSF transition car, 2 Superliner coaches, 1 Superliner diner, and 1 Superliner sleeper. The train would, on occasion (every third trip at the start), use a heritage sleeper (ahead of the transition car) when a Superliner sleeper was not available, which was the case at the start.

Short train compared to today's, in other words... I'd guess there was no Portland section at this time then. When did the train get the Sightseer Lounge (or Lounge-Café as I think they may have been called at that time)?

USRailFan wrote: Short train compared to today's, in other words... I'd guess there was no Portland section at this time then. When did the train get the Sightseer Lounge (or Lounge-Café as I think they may have been called at that time)?

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I don't know when specifically the Empire Builder received its Sightseer Lounges, but it was sometime in 1981. The first train to receive a Sightseer Lounge was the San Francisco Zephyr at the beginning of that year.

The Portland section of the Empire Builder began operating near the end of October, 1981. The Sightseer Lounge was the food service car between Spokane and Portland (as is the case now), so they were in service on the Empire Builder at that time.

Yes, it's interesting to note that today's Portland section of the Empire Builder had just about as much capacity as the entire train when the Superliners were first introduced, and at that time the train was only operating three times per week!

So after the train got the Portland section and a Sightseer Lounge I guess the consist became pretty close to what it is like today? (Something along the lines of Baggage Car, Transition car, coach baggage, two coaches, sightseer Lounge, diner, sleeper, sleeper - with one coach, coach baggage, sightseer lounge and one sleeper in the Portland section and the rest to Seattle?)

Supreme irony:

The Superliners are now older in service than either the ATSF Hi-Level equipment (save the test cars), UP's domes, or UP's last order of new Pullmans (National, Ocean, Placid and "City" sleeper-lounges) were on A-Day.

USRailFan, here's an Empire Builder consist I rode in summer 1999, almost exactly 10 years ago (don't remember the exact date, but it's very close). Portland cars are below the dashed line.

800 P40
817 P40
1208 Baggage
39038 Transition Sleeper
32027 Sleeper
32002 Sleeper
38006 Diner
34042 Coach
31515 Smoking Coach (Converted Coach-Baggage)
----------
33021 Sightseer Lounge
34044 Coach
31028 Coach-Baggage
32044 Sleeper
1557 Material Handling Car
In St. Paul, Coach-Baggage 31007 was added behind Sleeper 32044 for the run to Chicago.
(All were in Phase IV paint except the baggage and MHC in Phase III)

This is basically the same consist that has been used since the Transition Sleepers arrrived in the mid-90s until today, except the P40s gave way to P42s, the MHCs are gone and the smoking coach is thankfully just a regular coach again. Before the transition sleepers the consist of cars was probably about the same with F40PHs and an ex-ATSF step-up hi-level coach instead of the transition sleeper, but the other cars might not have been in the same order. On other Superliner trains Amtrak used to run the coaches toward the front and the sleepers at the rear until they got the transition sleepers, but because of the Spokane split I don't know if the Empire Builder ran that way in those days.

And John, since the first Superliners are 30 years old, they, and the first Amfleets, are now older than any cars built after WWII would have been in 1971, which would include virtually everything Amtrak started with. (Did Amtrak inherit any prewar cars?)

Interesting, I thought they mostly ran with three P40s at that time (one for the Portland section and two for the Seattle section)? Also the Empire Builder, together with the City of New Orleans and Auto Train seem to have been among the 'last hangouts' of the P40s on long distance trains, virtually all other Amtrak LDs I've seen consists for from that era (1999-2000) seems to have had P42s (California Zephyr, Southwest Chief, Sunset Limited, Texas Eagle).
Generally tho, it seems that my theory that the Empire Builder's consist has gone mostly unchanged between 1981 and now (apart from going from F40PHs to P40s and then to P42s as power, getting MHCs and roadrailers added and then losing them again) stands.
Thanks to anyone who supplied information.

Actually at that time the Portland section still ran with F40PHs that didn't run through in the combined train, as is usually the case with today's P42. On that particular trip, the Portland section was powered by F40PHs 322 (in Phase III) and 354 (in Florida Fun Train colors!)

Effective September 25, the Empire Builder will begin stopping in Leavenworth WA, a bavarian themed tourist town in the Cascade Mountains. The Leavenworth stop will be about 30 minutes before Wenatchee for eastbound passengers on train 8 and about 30 minutes after Wenatchee for westbound passengers on train 7.

The local backers of the Leavenworth Icicle Station project are expecting to attract more visitors from the Seattle area and they're also hoping that cruise ship passengers will want to add-on a Leavenworth excursion before or after their trip to Alaska.

Here's the Icicle Station project homepage.

Unfortunately, the train times will not exactly be convenient - very early in the morning for the westbound, very late at night for the eastbound. Let's see how much tourist traffic is generated with that schedule.

Geez, if Washington is banking that bad on Leavenworth, perhaps they ought to seek out a train that compliments the Empire Builder to Spokane (i.e. a day train leaving Seattle in the morning for arrival into Spokane in late afternoon, and vice versa from Spokane to Seattle. Course maybe they'd also want to add some additional localized station stops for such a state supported train between Seattle and Spokane. Didn't Washington State at one time have ambitions of such a train?

jp1822 wrote:Didn't Washington State at one time have ambitions of such a train?

Once, but it has been put on the back burner.

Essentially - the train takes eight hours and the car takes six. Horizon Air can do it in about 45 minutes. The train simply isn't time competitive and there are plenty of bus services.

The I-5 corridor has far more ridership potential and is time competitive with the other modes (especially when you consider the effort required to get in, through, and out of PDX, SEA and YVR). On the other hand, I would imagine that a second Seattle-Wenatchee-Spokane train or even a Seattle-Yakima-Pasco-Spokane would be more successful than a reincarnated Pioneer (Portland-Boise-Salt Lake City).

wigwagfan wrote:

jp1822 wrote:Didn't Washington State at one time have ambitions of such a train?

Once, but it has been put on the back burner.

Essentially - the train takes eight hours and the car takes six. Horizon Air can do it in about 45 minutes. The train simply isn't time competitive and there are plenty of bus services.

The I-5 corridor has far more ridership potential and is time competitive with the other modes (especially when you consider the effort required to get in, through, and out of PDX, SEA and YVR). On the other hand, I would imagine that a second Seattle-Wenatchee-Spokane train or even a Seattle-Yakima-Pasco-Spokane would be more successful than a reincarnated Pioneer (Portland-Boise-Salt Lake City).

The train can make a Spokane-Seattle trip in 7 hours or less. Have ridden it several times when late and traversed the route in 6 hours, 45 minutes. Of course, BNSF wouldn't go for a scheduled running time, but it is possible and eventually achievable. On the other hand, not everyone wants to go from Spokane to Seattle. Snohomish county has nearly 700,000 people on its own (county seat: Everett), with nearly 300,000 more just to the north in Skagit and Whatcom counties. Bellingham doesn't have direct air service to Spokane, and anyone who lives in Everett and plans to fly to Spokane knows that they better leave for Sea-Tac airport about 3 hours prior to departure (or more....Sea-Tac has to have some of the longest lines for security I've ever experienced). A train trip from Everett to Spokane is competitive timewise to the bus and driving, and for the three or so hours you'd save flying, a lot less hassle.

The daytime Seattle-Spokane Amtrak "Expo '74" didn't do too well as far as ridership during the 1974 World's Fair, but I would bet with an entity like the Washington DOT promoting the service like they do their other trains, such a service would be better patronized today, but I don't look for this to happen for a long time.