• All Things Empire Builder

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by Tom6921
 
Okay, I assume we all know that the Empire Builder gets split at Spokane with the last four cars going to Portland and the rest of the train going to Seattle. What I want to know is does Amtrak have some locos stationed at Spokane waiting to take the Portland section or does the loco come all the way from Chicago?

If there is a loco at Spokane, is there a yard where they're kept in between runs?
  by electricron
 
I'm not exactly sure, but surely they add locomotives to cross the Rockies. Seems to me they need the extra locomotives east of Spokane to cross the Rockies. Somewhere east the extra locomotives are dropped off, and become available for the westbound train to help cross the Rockies again. It's not like the locomotives are kept idling on a siding long. I wonder where they are dropped off the eastbound train, and added onto the westbound?
  by gprimr1
 
I'm not 100% sure on this, but I would venture a guess the engine is added in Minneapolis/St. Paul. I say this because they add a car to the Empire Builder between Minneapolis and Chicago (It's coded as train 27/28).

The engine could also be added at Minot ND or Harve Mt, but from the time I road this route, I got off to walk around at Minot and Harve, and I don't remember them adding an engine.

On a side note, they actually do a very good job of respecting that it's midnight when they combine the train eastbound. I was too excited to sleep, but I only remember a few minor bumps as they coupled and decoupled things, and of course the noise of the HEP coming back on.

The other interesting thing, is if I remember right again, there is at least 1 coach car between the observation car and the diner.
  by electricron
 
I believe that coach located between the Diner and Lounge car would be one of the few with a small cafe on the bottom level. That way it goes with the Diner to Seattle, while the Lounge car with a full cafe on the bottom level heads for Portland.
But, a few years ago I rode the Empire Builder, the Cafe-Coach went to Portland, and there wasn't a Coach located between the Diner and Lounge cars, both went to Seattle. I've read that there isn't necessarily a Cafe-Coach on the Empire Builder, so maybe what you experience was a coincidence.
  by lwbaxter
 
Amtrak has used most all possible ways to provide a locomotive for the Portland section:
3 units CHI-SPK become 2 units SPK-SEA and one unit SPK-PDX.
2 units back to back run PDX-SPK-PDX turning same night at Spokane.
1 unit lays over at Spokane requiring it to be turned prior to the next nights departure.
2 units run elephant style CHI-SPK are slpit at SPK. SEA section picks up inbound unit from PDX.
vice versa: trailing unit out of Seattle is set out for 27, 8 picks up 28s loco.
LWB
  by AMTK1007
 
During the winter the BNSF requires 3 units. Right now the lead unit on 7 goes to 27 at portland, and the unit of 28 becomes the leader on 8 at Spokane. This is the mode of operation currently. The Plan is to run the units on 7 facing west west east ( thus by default 8 will run east east west), though Chicago does not always line the power up that way.

When running 2 units, it can vary how the porland unit is produced as stated in a previous post. A key factor is the availability of power system wide , if there is a shortage, then you can bet that there won't' be a 2nd unit for 27/28, which is prefered so that you don't have to wye the power at Spokane. Additionally, often times if 8 comes out with an F59 there will be switching in Spokane to send the F59 to Portland on 27 to keep it in the PNW.

As for St Pauul, Generally there is not a unit added at MSP unless it has been set out there for mechanical reasons or special train service ( Friends of the 261 charters most often) the addition of the MSP set out coach does not require an extra unit.
  by AMTK1007
 
electricron wrote:I believe that coach located between the Diner and Lounge car would be one of the few with a small cafe on the bottom level. That way it goes with the Diner to Seattle, while the Lounge car with a full cafe on the bottom level heads for Portland.
But, a few years ago I rode the Empire Builder, the Cafe-Coach went to Portland, and there wasn't a Coach located between the Diner and Lounge cars, both went to Seattle. I've read that there isn't necessarily a Cafe-Coach on the Empire Builder, so maybe what you experience was a coincidence.
electricron,
They do not use a panic box on either section ( except to sub for badorder equipment) both sections are carded for a coach and a coach baggage, though the Seattle section will run with 2 coaches whenever possible. Typically, 1/2 the diner is used as the lounge between Seattle and Spokane. at least that is the GENERAL game plan, IROPS may indeed require the use of a Panic box
  by Jersey_Mike
 
Everyone seems to be interested in how Amtrak's hard pressed western Long Distance trains are faring so here is a summary of the events that transpired on my recent transcontinental journey between Seattle and Washington, DC. This trip was booked back in February as a joint effort between a friend and myself to take a transcontinental trip on Amtrak's premier LD train through terrain that he would be interested in over a rail route that I would be interested in. He would use his Amtrak Guest Rewards points to pay for the Builder part of the trip and I would use cash and exchange vouchers to pay for the Capitol Limited part of the trip. We would fly to Seattle, stay overnight then catch the next day's Builder to the east making the same day connection with the Capitol Limited.

Now in hindsight the same day Cap connection was a mistake, but it was borne out of my general misunderstanding that the Builder arrived in Chicago around 2pm instead of 4pm and that the Builder was a generally reliable train. We opted for the same day connection to avoid incurring a hotel stay in Chicago and to avoid using an extra vacation day from work. Usually the Builder has a 70-80% on time rate for June so even with the short 2hr 45min connection at the time the trip was booked this would have seemed like a reasonable bet. Unfortunately as people are well aware nature conspired to disrupt Amtrak train service and for the first two weeks of June we were unsure if out train would even run, forcing us to rebook for July or abandon the trip all together. Fortunately calls to Amtrak Guest Rewards and their amazingly helpful staff kept us informed as to the status of our train 8 and we were assured that service would resume on June 15th so we boarded our fight the morning before the first Builder even departed to Chicago with the faith that Amtrak would not screw us over.

After a day in Seattle checking off all of the requisite tourist boxes we boarded our train 8 at the King St station, which was undergoing extensive renovations to restore the interior to its former grandeur. The only thing out of the ordinary about the trainset was that it was lacking the usual heritage baggage car, relying on the Superliner baggage holds instead. Our car attendant, a former Starbucks barista, was making his very first solo run so he brought a lot of heart and enthusiasm to the job as neither had been crushed out of him by either management or passengers. He greeted my friend and I with two complimentary servings of Champagne and after that I headed back to the end of the train for some photos as our train proceeded north along the banks of Puget Sound. At Everett it was time for dinner because a giant railfan organized, retiree centered, cross-country rail excursion booked through Holiday Adventures had block booked most of the dinner reservation times >:-0 so that was kinda not cool. Still the seafood special for the trip was, you guessed it, salmon, and not the god awful microwave heated salmon patty I had the misfortune of actually paying for on the Crescent, but fresh caught, chef prepared, Pacific Northwest salmon.

After dinner it was back to the back of the train where I took photos through the Cascade range. Due to the latitude and time of year I had usable sunlight until just after Wenatchee at about 9:30pm, which was absolutely phenomenal. Because my friend and I did not want to miss Glacier Park we both turned in about 10:30pm in order to be up and rested by 6am the next morning. When we awoke I was devastated to find a single level dome car owned by some outfit called "Rail Ventures" slapped on to our now elongated train right behind the Portland sleeper. While this was threatening to derail my entire mission plan I retreated to the dining car for breakfast at which point we passed a 12 hour late 7(15) headed up by the Phase III painted P42. Due to the eating of breakfast and the dome I was unable to photograph it. 8(15) also had a heritage baggage on the rear, perhaps to replace the one that had broken down in Seattle. We arrived Whitefish, MT 20-30 minutes late and I got out to take some pictures of the annoying dome and enjoy the 47 degree air temperature. Now at this point we began to lose it because the Whitefish stop started to drag on and on, lasting a good 15-20 minutes beyond the allotted time. To make matters worse, schedule wise that is, the train then pulled forward, stopped, then spent another 20 minutes setting out the dome car at the Whitefish station track. I was later told that some of the initial delay was spent farting around with the private car so while PVs are a great source of revenue, Amtrak really needs to work on minimizing en-route delays from pick up and drop off moves.

So we leave Whitefish a bit over an hour down and we then proceed through Glacier Park and over the Continental Divide unmolested. We proceeded unimpeded to Shelby where we had to pass, then back into the station due to a freight train obstructing the main track that had the platform. Having experienced this move once before at Rocky Mount it makes me wonder why it isn't standard practice for Amtrak to invest in some duck boards to allow trains to platform across the intervening track. Doubly unfortunate was that I had been forced to take a time out from the back of the train when I managed to completely drain the battery on my friend's DSLR camera. Anyway, upon departure from Havre we had the afternoon combination wine tasting and trivia contest "activity" for the sleeping car passengers. My friend and I each won a bottle of wine in the trivia contest because we had the correct answer for the "tie breaker" question that "nobody" is supposed to know. This question was how many revolutions does one of the wheels on our passenger car make in a mile, which is a pretty simple calculation for any railfan that knows a standard wheelset is 35-36 inches in diameter. ;)

We passed the 7(16) Builder at Savoy after about a 5 minute wait and continued onto Glasgow. At this point the extent of the flooding became apparent as large portions of the land on either side of the railroad right of way took on the appearance of rice paddies or tidal wetlands. I'm not talking a few puddles here, but inland seas that could stretch a mile or more from the tracks and it went on for hours. For the entire 40 minutes of dinner we were essentially on a causeway in the middle of a giant lake. It is fortunate that there was no human settlement to speak of that was impacted by the flooding and the regulars on the train said that normally this time of year everything would be brown and dead so some in the area might not be too picky about the form their water comes in as long as it is water.

About 2 miles out of Glasgow we came to a stop again, this time for a good 15-20 minutes while we waited for a westbound freight to clear the single track ahead of us. Making the problem worse it was forced to pull into a yard track due to the main being occupied by another freight and so that resulted in a nice 10mph crawl. After this we had some reasonable running except for two more waits to allow freight to pass. In each case the train was sitting on the main and we pulled into the siding. Unfortunately after the first trains left they each had a follower that we then had to wait for resulting in two 10-15 minute delays. I don't fault the dispatchers here as nearly every siding was occupied by a train so at some point something would have to give. Still the delays were nothing out of the ordinary for an LD Amtrak trip. I should also mention that there was some problem with an air hose between the two locomotives that required at least 3 short stops to fix, but there may have been more while I was sleeping. Anyway I lost usable light at Bainville and headed back to the sleeper once we crossed into North Dakota. Between then and the time we went to sleep we experienced no more obvious freight delays, although we did seem to fart around a bit at Williston. Amtrak really needs to work on improving its station dwell times.

Anyway I woke up at 5:50 the next morning as our train was pulling out of Grand Forks, only to stop and reverse back into the east leg of the wye there to allow 7(17) to pass us. Apparently this was easier than trying to arrange a meet somewhere on the Hillsboro Sub. If you wonder why that was the case the Hillsboro is operated under ABS/TWC rules that makes use of manually operated sidings so Grand Forks is the only location where a crewmember doesn't have to get out and hand align switches. I didn't see when 7(17) arrived as I went back to sleep, but I woke up and had breakfast as our train pulled through Fargo around 8am. At this point I headed back to the Portland sleeper for more photos on the Staples Sub, which would normally be traversed in darkness or low light. We arrived in the Twin Cities around 1pm where a heavy downpour curtailed photography of the engines and the string of private cars stored at the station including that Milwaukee Road observation car everybody loves.

I decided to take the former Soo Line main off as it was generally devoid of anything remotely interesting, but when it came time to pass 7(18) we once again had to do a pull-in move at the New Lisbon, WI wye track due to the lack of an available siding. Also about this time our attendant showed up with two extra servings of champagne, which combined with the 12 of Heineken we had brought aboard made the 6 hour delay much less of a factor. At this point the crew stepped up to serve an extra dinner due to the lateness of the train. Our first time car attendant made the unfortunate mistake of announcing to the entire train that our sleeper would be first, followed by the other sleepers and finally the coach passengers if there was anything left. Whoops! :D As we neared Chicago we learned that Amtrak's lead Service Manager for the Pacific Northwest (known as J.C.) was on board and he went through the entire train to discuss what would be done for those who had connections. The initial plan would be to put everyone up in the Chicago Inn (on the Magnificent Mile).

At this point I should now explain my own unique reservation situation. Our trip had been made on two separate reservations as I was paying cash and my friend AGR points. Now when the Builder became severely delayed we called up and "linked' the two reservations so that if the Builder were to be late we would be entitled to whatever remediation Amtrak had to offer. Now my friend outrightly refuses to travel LD via coach so to preempt a sold out 30(19) a few weeks prior I had used my own AGR points to book a roomette on that train while they were still available. ARG reservations can be canceled without penalty up to 1 hour before departure so if out 8(16) were on time we could just cancel the 30(19) res. Well 8(16) was late, but I did not want to either be stuck with $350 in exchange vouchers or pay 20,000 AGR points for a pathetically short sleeper journey. As we re-entered "bars" country my friend spent some time on the phone talking to every sort of agent available at Amtrak trying to find someone who could take the room we reserved via AGR and put it on the reservation we paid for. We knew better than to try and cancel one then quickly re-book the other because the price would not be the same and moreover when trains are late Amtrak will lock out any unsold rooms so if one becomes available it will instantly be reserved for missed connections.

As we were pulling onto Chicago the word came down that train 48 had been held for anyone making connections to the east coast. While many people were happy about this, I became worried that instead of a hotel we would be forced onto 48 (presumably coach) that, in theory, would get us to our destination with the least delay, it would involve far more "train time" and a protracted connection to a Regional train in NYC. Upon arrival in Chicago just before 10:30 we jetted Passenger Services and ended up being first in line. There the agent began to write up our hotel and meal voucher and upon hearing my story about the backup AGR reservation she directed me to a ticketing superuser named Jenifer who informed the passenger services agent that she would be able to transfer our reservation no problem. With vouchers in hand I passed the massive line of late passengers behind me and went to the deserted ticket counter where Jenifer stood ready to help me. She took my original paper tickets for 30(18) and after making a call to someone at some national center who has "multiple computer screens" they were able to directly move my AGR reserved room onto my original 30(18) reservation. The most rewarding part was when she described to the super-superuser that she had two passengers who had been "extremely smart" to reverse a backup room ahead of time. You might e wondering if train 8 was consistently late why couldn't we just get booked into the rooms unused by the following day's late 8. Well that day the Texas Eagle had suffered massive delays due to the Alton Line being closed for trackwork and the detour route suffering some sort of problem. All of those riders had already been booked onto the open rooms on 30(19) leaving my friend any I to be the only passengers off 8(16) to get a sleeping accommodation on 30(19). We were advised by both the ticket and passenger services agents not to let the other passengers in line see that we had been able to change our tickets least it set off some form of riot as nobody else was having tickets changed at that time. d.d b.b

Anyway we went up to Canal St where a coach bus was ready and waiting to take us to the O'Hare Airport Hilton. Unfortunately this was no shuttle bus, but a bus that waited for over and hour for all the passengers to be processed. We rolled into the Hotel at nearly 1am, but despite the lateness the rooms were very nice as in far far nicer than anything that one should expect to get for free. Not sure what Amtrak paid, but on one of the voucher forms it was listed as $66 for what was easily a $200 room. We also got $24 in meal cash, but the process was a tad awkward with passenger services giving us a green voucher to be cashed at the ticket window that same night. This was not explained to us, but when we showed up a day late the ticket agent had no problems with honoring the voucher. A bus was to be available for the return trip from the Airport Hilton, but after the debacle with the first bus my friend and I opted to just walk to the nearby Rosemont CTA Blue Line. While walking to the station some folks in a passing car actually stopped and gave us each a day pass with a few hours left so we didn't even end up paying for our L trip. As if that wasn't enough the 2200 series Budds were still running on the line and with 4-car Sunday trainsets they were visible for photographs.

So in summary the trip was excellent with great food, superb service and absolutely ZERO encounters with douchbag staff. I am including 30(19) in that as well. The Chicago ticket and passenger service agents were well versed in dealing with delays and making sure people were well cared for. Some passengers were a bit upset, but they tended to be those impervious to logic or explanations so there's not much that can be done to really deal with that. If there is anything Amtrak could have done better it would have been to have a more automated process for writing up the vouchers, which all had to be completed by hand and to have been more forthright about the bus and how long it was going to take to load. It was presented to us as a "shuttle bus" that was running back and forth due to a conference in town. On the ride I would encourage Amtrak to get its dwell times under control and also shift the Empire Builder's schedule ahead by 1-2 hours. As is the Builder passes glacier park on the edge of darkness in both directions. As the most scenic part of the trip that should be moved solidly into daylight. An earlier Builder would also make better connections into Chicago and Seattle. This would mean a noonish departure from Chicago and a 2:40 departure from Seattle.
  by hi55us
 
A word of advice about cross-country train travel that my dad always used to say, take off your watch for the whole trip. That's why you're on the train, to have a relaxing ride, if time was an issue you would fly.

With that said it seems amtrak handled the delays well and I'm glad they put you up in a hotel. The presence of customer service personnel on the train is a nice touch. If this had occurred on the airlines you would have been stuck paying for the hotel or stuck in the terminal (it's happened on numerous occasions to me).
  by gprimr1
 
I'm glad to hear they handled the delays so nicely. That really is I think the key, every form of transportation can suffer delays, how you handle them is how you win (most) customers back.
  by bardk321
 
As an OBS who frequently is sent out to work the Portland section on 7, I'm glad you had a good trip. The Empire Builder has been really tough for the Seattle and Chicago crews this year because of the delays and we all have pretty much had at least one hell trip (or more) on that train. I'm glad that you had a good crew that wasn't so beaten down. J.C. was on train the last three times I worked on it (all of which were subjected to extreme delay or canceling a segment of the route) and he always helped make our jobs a lot easier by working with the passengers (especially in the coaches).

I hear you about the private cars. They're always a major nuisance and always destroy the schedule.

Also, I'm glad you got through. 7 was 12 hours late yesterday and is about 14 hours late today. Today, the train was canceled out of Chicago and they sent out a stub train to MSP. Let's see how many more weeks it takes before this line is rolling again.

Again, I'm always impressed how well Amtrak handles the passengers after we arrive in Chicago. That does win major points with a lot of passengers, I think.
  by Jersey_Mike
 
I wish I could have gotten eyes on the ground as to the situation around Devil's lake, but it was just too late/early and dark out for that.
J.C. was on train the last three times I worked on it (all of which were subjected to extreme delay or canceling a segment of the route) and he always helped make our jobs a lot easier by working with the passengers (especially in the coaches).
Does he always wear that crazy hat?
I hear you about the private cars. They're always a major nuisance and always destroy the schedule.
Well they are a good source of revenue and a valuable connection to the past. It would be nice if there were some way to check if a particular train had a private car booked in advance tho so I could attempt to avoid them.
Last edited by Jersey_Mike on Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
  by electricron
 
bardk321 wrote:Again, I'm always impressed how well Amtrak handles the passengers after we arrive in Chicago. That does win major points with a lot of passengers, I think.
I'll agree. But Amtrak's Chicago managers get way too much practice doing so. People expect to make their connecting trains and are always disappointed when they don't. Been there, done that before. If you're goal is to ride a Superliner sleeper to D.C. on the CL, ending up on the EB and heading for NYC in coach isn't what you wanted. Whether it's the same night or the next day, EB or CL, getting you there in coach instead of sleeper is not the style you initially paid.
  by RAY
 
Was just browsing BNSF's relatively new web site (which railfans are encouraged to visit) when a feature concerning the EMPIRE BUILDER caught my eye. When is the last time CSX or NS or UP favorably mentioned a PASSENGER train on their websites? True, almost all of the article understandably focusses on the Great Northern's version, but BNSF does credit Amtrak for having carried 400,000 passengers on the BUILDER in 2010. There's also an accompanying PDF containing a Great Northern travel brochure with route map.
Last edited by gprimr1 on Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total. Reason: Title change.
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