Proposed PATCO Expansion

gardendance wrote: If, as Bill R. mentions, you're looking at North Philly to 9th-10th and Locust, it'd be simpler just to send the Ridge trains all the way to the end of the Locust St subway, since you'd have to get them out of the way at 8th St somehow even if you had your proposed cross platform transfer.
But like Bill R, I don't see the cost worth the passengers.

I think an extension north to west market is probably the most useful of any possible PA side PATCO work.

One of One-Sixty wrote: Now if the PATCO Line is the same gauge as the BSL, how feasible would it be to once it cross the bridge to turn off at Arch connect to the BSL connecting with City Hall and then connecting back to Walnut/Locust. This way you could have some trains hitting City Hall with a one seat ride and others can go down its current route.

I've been thinking about this proposal a bit after initially dismissing it. I tend to like it for a number of reasons. If the trains terminate at waltnut-locust they provde excellent south broad access, transfer to BSL trains, the el, ALL Regional Rail trains. PATCO can also operate though trains to Pattison Ave (PATCO Sports express). Additionally, the Navy Yard BSL extension would then benefit both sides of the river since PATCO trains could then operate though to the Navy Yard, negating any need for an LRT extension down there (which I think is unnecessary anyways). However, I would reroute ALL PATCO trains this way and return the tunnel to SEPTA use where I think it would be more useful. If we look at what bus routes are moving the most people per vehicle hour, number one is 47M+47. another heavily used bus is the 33 on 19th/20th. Extend the current locust st tunnel north under 20th st following the 33 bus route. This would run N/S on 19th to 20th to Rittenhouse Sq where it could use the current PATCO tunnel to 9th/10th where it would head south under 8th st. Coming from the other direction, you could extend the the tunnel south under 20th st (17 bus) to passyunk/oregon. This would operate through to either current BSL spur or as Ridge Ave subway. In this manner, both would "cross" center city. I realize this is probably a pipe dream but the end goal would be to create a usable metro SYSTEM.

There was a posting several months ago regarding a "delivery loop" construction drawings that utilizes interchanges between the Broad, Arch, and Locust tunnels. With the configuration of the Broad Street subway around City Hall, are these connections in place? If these connections exist, the interconnection between PATCO and the BSS would be relatively easy.

interlocking wrote:There was a posting several months ago regarding a "delivery loop" construction drawings that utilizes interchanges between the Broad, Arch, and Locust tunnels. With the configuration of the Broad Street subway around City Hall, are these connections in place? If these connections exist, the interconnection between PATCO and the BSS would be relatively easy.

I don't know that enough of the delivery loop was actually build to be able to complete it now.

check out these links though, good idea of what they were shooting for:
http://www.phillyhistory.org/PhotoArchi ... etId=41358
http://www.phillyhistory.org/PhotoArchi ... etId=41376
http://www.phillyhistory.org/PhotoArchi ... etId=41377
http://www.phillyhistory.org/PhotoArchi ... etId=41818
http://www.phillyhistory.org/PhotoArchi ... etId=41815

in the last ones you can barely see some interesting potential connections to suburban station.

Sorry to be a little off topic/stupid sounding, but why didn't they build any of these lines

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression

Actually it was more of a political power struggle over who would operate the lines once built. The depression killed the branch lines, and the corrupt politics of Philly kept the New Deal money from being spent in that way. They actually built some provisions of the lines in advance that never got connected. Thats why there are some segments of tunnel under arch street, bellmouths and flyovers at various points on the Broad Street subway, like Erie, Olney, and Snyder. Theres also the Henry Ave. bridge over the Wissahickon, which has two subway tunnel under the roadway for the never built parkway-roxborough line. Also rumored, but as far as I know unconfirmed are an unfinished station for the Art Museum, and possibly a tunnel segment under Washington Ave, but the latter I've only ever heard from one person.

tinmad dog wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression

Actually it was more of a political power struggle over who would operate the lines once built. The depression killed the branch lines, and the corrupt politics of Philly kept the New Deal money from being spent in that way. They actually built some provisions of the lines in advance that never got connected. Thats why there are some segments of tunnel under arch street, bellmouths and flyovers at various points on the Broad Street subway, like Erie, Olney, and Snyder. Theres also the Henry Ave. bridge over the Wissahickon, which has two subway tunnel under the roadway for the never built parkway-roxborough line. Also rumored, but as far as I know unconfirmed are an unfinished station for the Art Museum, and possibly a tunnel segment under Washington Ave, but the latter I've only ever heard from one person.

do you know the route of the parkway-roxborough line?

tinmad dog wrote:...possibly a tunnel segment under Washington Ave, but the latter I've only ever heard from one person.

I've never heard of a tunnel under Washington Ave. and I also agree I doubt its existence. If you watch closely on the BSL you can tell when you go under Washington Ave. as the two tracks pinch together. This is due to a bridge type structure that was erected there to support the street running PRR tracks which have been removed. Also, I've never read anything about the PRR having to temporarily stop service anywhere on the Washington Ave. line for a tunnel project - this line was quite active in its heyday and served numerous industrial complexes. You'd never know it to look at the area today.

Drew

Suburban Station wrote:do you know the route of the parkway-roxborough line?

My understanding is Parkway - 29th st - Henry Ave, which I found many years ago at http://staff.philau.edu/KrasulskiM/transit/parkway.htm

As far as the alleged Washington Ave tunnel, I heard that from my old boss a few jobs ago. Talking about transit stuff with him, and some of the unfinished stuff, he mentioned that when he had been working for the Fire Commissioner, they had all sorts of information about oddities like extra deep basements and tunnels, and that there was some sort of tunnel under Washington Ave. He didn't say where exactly, or how long it was. My guess is, if its really there, it was probably just some sort of duckunder crossing under one block. None of the Transit planning info I've come across ever seemed to suggest any crosstown lines for south philly.

A train operator on PATCO was telling me that when they constructed the 8th street tunnel in the 30's they had to make provisions for subway tunnels at Arch and Chestnut streets. Since we travelling slowly through a work area, he pointed out flat portions in the ceiling tunnel roof where those tunnels were constructed. Since tunnel section were constructed on Arch Street, were similar sections built along Chestnut?

cpontani wrote:If they do indeed run third rail through there, will the third rail interfere with freight service? I thought the LIRR and now the NY&A has something removed on their locomotives so they don't hit the third rail and rip it out?

I doubt very much that Patco trains will share trackage with freights.

Suburban Station wrote:

gardendance wrote: If, as Bill R. mentions, you're looking at North Philly to 9th-10th and Locust, it'd be simpler just to send the Ridge trains all the way to the end of the Locust St subway, since you'd have to get them out of the way at 8th St somehow even if you had your proposed cross platform transfer.
But like Bill R, I don't see the cost worth the passengers.

I think an extension north to west market is probably the most useful of any possible PA side PATCO work.

PATCO initially considered including a new station at 21st and Market in their planning work but rejected it when SEPTA didn't express much interest. The concept would be that PATCO would turn north under Rittenhouse Square and terminate around 21st street to make a direct connection to a SEPTA MFL station at 21st. The benefit of this to PATCO is that their riders who work in the growing western portion of Center City will no longer have to schlep from 16th and Locust. The benefit to SEPTA riders isn't so explicit. In both cases, this is an expensive and disruptive solution to a fairly small problem and will probably not go anywhere. The City asked PATCO to identify the costs and benefits of this new station in their ongoing planning project and PATCO said no.

I heard that SEPTA and PATCO are going to meet in the near future with the idea that PATCO may hand the project over to SEPTA. It isn't clear whether PATCO would even want to operate the service.

Was the 21st st. station an early concept? It appears that all the expansion plans shown on the website involved eastward expansion towards Delaware Avenue. Why does the expansion plans only involve the subway surface lines? Are they even looking at expanding the actual line in Philadelphia like the NJ expansion routes?

i read that center city district wanted patco to turn up 18th (stop at rittenhouse) north, turn at jfk (stop at market/ suburban) west (stop at 22nd st) and go to 30th street (stop at amtrak) and possiblly turn south to university city and airport. this would solve most of the current connection problems and really boost patco ridership.

FatPants wrote: PATCO initially considered including a new station at 21st and Market in their planning work but rejected it when SEPTA didn't express much interest. The concept would be that PATCO would turn north under Rittenhouse Square and terminate around 21st street to make a direct connection to a SEPTA MFL station at 21st. The benefit of this to PATCO is that their riders who work in the growing western portion of Center City will no longer have to schlep from 16th and Locust. The benefit to SEPTA riders isn't so explicit. In both cases, this is an expensive and disruptive solution to a fairly small problem and will probably not go anywhere. The City asked PATCO to identify the costs and benefits of this new station in their ongoing planning project and PATCO said no.

I heard that SEPTA and PATCO are going to meet in the near future with the idea that PATCO may hand the project over to SEPTA. It isn't clear whether PATCO would even want to operate the service.

Thinking about it a little bit more, I think a west market el stop makes the msot sense at 20th st. you coudl build a new station, piece by piece, there and consolidate the two trolley stops into one. at 20th, move the trolley tracks out further, build an el platofmr where the tracks used to be, then mothball the two dumpy old stations. with this one, it may even be realistic to turn the tunnel back over to SEPTA since PATCO riders would be able to get to west markat via the el. tunnel extensions of the locust st tunnel may be more useful if it's SEPTA running in it.