Southern Tier - why so much upkeep for little traffic?

K4Pacific wrote:From NS Development - and I'll have more on this after Wednesday. I'll get heck for this. But this is not a rumor. Traffic is such that the NS LV line is at a choking point. Development officials say they are working on beginning one a day each day service again to get to the port of Newark. Similar to the pair Southbound out of Binghamton on that circuitous route.

I'll try to find out more Wednesday at my meeting. But my last meeting with them, they were looking for a Labor Day start up. However, operationally coinciding with the STB ruling on the Patriot Corridor in October could delay that Labor day start up for Newark to Bellevue, OH via Buffalo. The other factor is a reciprical on the NYSW Sparta route. Chew on it over the holiday. More Thursday.

Interesing, but where did you hear or get all this from?? Is there a link?? I'm Not totally doubting you, but if you don't work for the railroad or don't know someone close in management at NS I would have to say this is still just a unspecified *RUMOR* in my eyes!

L&HR C&S wrote:There are several items in the lease which where not acheived [sic]; the removal of the signaling system for one. This alone, if you read the 2004 lease, gives the NYSW / CNY right to back out of the lease. When the FRA did not approve the block signal removal application...<snip>.

FRA was never given the opportunity to approve or deny the petition to remove the signal system. On the day the public hearing took place in Binghamton, NYSW amended the petition to remove the signal system only between CP COLE (MP 209) and WEST BD (MP 212-ish), and to do the single-tracking near Susquehanna and signal system upgrades that they later went on to do. It was entirely NYSW's decision to upgrade the signal system. FRA had nothing to do with it.

All of this is in the public record and can be viewed online at the FRA's web site.

Jim

K4Pacific wrote:From NS Development - and I'll have more on this after Wednesday. I'll get heck for this. But this is not a rumor. Traffic is such that the NS LV line is at a choking point. Development officials say they are working on beginning one a day each day service again to get to the port of Newark. Similar to the pair Southbound out of Binghamton on that circuitous route.

maybe its me finishing up 16hours of work on 2 hours sleep. but could this be translated into railfan vocab for me? is this saying "there" might a train on the s/t? or am i just so tired i am reading things wrong.

FRA was never given the opportunity to approve or deny the petition to remove the signal system. On the day the public hearing took place in Binghamton, NYSW amended the petition to remove the signal system only between CP COLE (MP 209) and WEST BD (MP 212-ish), and to do the single-tracking near Susquehanna and signal system upgrades that they later went on to do. It was entirely NYSW's decision to upgrade the signal system. FRA had nothing to do with it.

The FRA did have alot to with the decision. What may not be apparent from online public record is that in the days prior to the public hearing the FRA inspected BH to PJ with NYS&W / CNY officials by inspection train and the point was made clear on that trip that FRA was not going to approve the block signal discontinuence application. During the trip the FRA discussed ways that the NYSW could rebuild the system somewhat economically and bring it to the point where it was reliable. In the end, Walter Rich modified the application to be only between 209 and 212 knowing that the FRA would not approve it otherwise. This was related to me by an FRA inspector that was on the trip. So in the end , the FRA had everything to do with the signal system not being removed PJ to BH.

MP 209 to 212 would be what is (was) known as Coles; changed from remote control interlocking to yard limits and hand operated. Plus at about 212 there is the new switch (East BD?) to D&H line to north on track 5 (east leg of wye) at BD MP 213. Also double track was removed over Gulf Summit, Mclure to SR.

henry6 wrote:MP 209 to 212 would be what is (was) known as Coles; changed from remote control interlocking to yard limits and hand operated. Plus at about 212 there is the new switch (East BD?) to D&H line to north on track 5 (east leg of wye) at BD MP 213. Also double track was removed over Gulf Summit, Mclure to SR.

Isn't that what I said? ;-)

L&HR C&S: Thanks for the background. It's interesting that CNYK, which had the ability to back out of the lease on this condition, decided to stick with it. And, of course, we're glad they did. :)

Jim

blockline4180 wrote:

K4Pacific wrote:From NS Development - and I'll have more on this after Wednesday. I'll get heck for this. But this is not a rumor. Traffic is such that the NS LV line is at a choking point. Development officials say they are working on beginning one a day each day service again to get to the port of Newark. Similar to the pair Southbound out of Binghamton on that circuitous route.

I'll try to find out more Wednesday at my meeting. But my last meeting with them, they were looking for a Labor Day start up. However, operationally coinciding with the STB ruling on the Patriot Corridor in October could delay that Labor day start up for Newark to Bellevue, OH via Buffalo. The other factor is a reciprical on the NYSW Sparta route. Chew on it over the holiday. More Thursday.

Interesing, but where did you hear or get all this from?? Is there a link?? I'm Not totally doubting you, but if you don't work for the railroad or don't know someone close in management at NS I would have to say this is still just a unspecified *RUMOR* in my eyes!

Judging from his posts here and at rf.net, K4pacific is involved with NS in the Elmira area... including a proposed transload facility. I'm trusting his statement. Even if I didn't know his background, it makes sense anyway, as NS already doubled tracked a section of the former lV main in NJ to handle increased traffic flow. Norfolk Southern is known for taking maximum advantage of as many of their assets as possible, so a Southern Tier renaissance could very well happen soon.

Has anyone heard anything about an ethanol plant going in on the Honesdale line?

Honesdale is in PA. Check PA state forum for discussion on the Stourbridge Line.

From what people say, it looks like ethanol isnt the only thing that is going to be shipped on that line in the near future. That might give the NYSW a breath of life... for now.

I dont think I'm gonna wait trackside for this Tier renaissance quite yet. If NS really has been talking about it, they've been known to change their minds before.

SecaucusJunction wrote:
I dont think I'm gonna wait trackside for this Tier renaissance quite yet. If NS really has been talking about it, they've been known to change their minds before.

Well, before you give up already, let us just wait and see if "K4pacific" writes his 2 cents in here again this week. Perhaps there is some credibility after all with the man!!

He might just be another "WashingtonSecondary" spreading false sightings and rumors all over here, J/k!!

folks, I'm having more than a little difficulty following this thread.

First, to quote from the statement that started it:

northjerseybuff wrote:Someone posted that the NYSW is cutting their road trains down to 2 days a week. That means 4 trains on the tier from Port Jervis to Binghamton..That being said, I was up there a few weeks ago and noticed a maintenance blitz..for what??? 4 trains? Honestly..what a waste of money.

Does that translate into "currently 4 trains a week between Port Jervis & Binghamton?"

Second, regarding the later comments about traffic growth, and in particular the ex-LV "reaching a choke point:" should we interpret that to mean that ---- in the opinion of the authors, of course ---- NYS&W may get involved and put more traffic between Port Jervis & Binghamton?

Please clarify.

Thanks

Tom Curtin wrote:folks, I'm having more than a little difficulty following this thread.

First, to quote from the statement that started it:

northjerseybuff wrote:Someone posted that the NYSW is cutting their road trains down to 2 days a week. That means 4 trains on the tier from Port Jervis to Binghamton..That being said, I was up there a few weeks ago and noticed a maintenance blitz..for what??? 4 trains? Honestly..what a waste of money.

Does that translate into "currently 4 trains a week between Port Jervis & Binghamton?"

Second, regarding the later comments about traffic growth, and in particular the ex-LV "reaching a choke point:" should we interpret that to mean that ---- in the opinion of the authors, of course ---- NYS&W may get involved and put more traffic between Port Jervis & Binghamton?

Please clarify.

Thanks

Yes. The line between Port Jervis and Binghamton is scheduled for two round trips or four trains per week; the four days may not be successive days.

As for traffic growth, the talk is speculative but based on stated future needs for transport in and out of the New York-New Jersey area. Speculation is that the NS line (former LV) traffic potential will grow beyond capacity as will traffic on the CSX River Line to Selkirk, NY and the former RDG line to West Trenton, NJ and Philadelphia. The only overflow capacity, therefore, would be the former Erie's Delaware Division, aka, the Southern Tier Line accessed either via NJT's NS route or the present NYSW routing (or both for that matter). There are no plans, there is no talk by the railroads or even planners (at least not publicly in either case) to affirm such speculation.

There are no plans, there is no talk by the railroads or even planners (at least not publicly in either case) to affirm such speculation.

This tells me you have already discounted everything that "K4Pacific" has said in here and even if it is proven that he does talk with NS Development it is all just hearsay?

blockline4180 wrote:

There are no plans, there is no talk by the railroads or even planners (at least not publicly in either case) to affirm such speculation.

This tells me you have already discounted everything that "K4Pacific" has said in here and even if it is proven that he does talk with NS Development it is all just hearsay?

By no means, no. But, the Patriot program of NS in conjunction with Pan Am, is not Southern Tier but New England to Hagarstown or generally south rather than east-west across the Tier for now. K4Pacific has said a lot but not revealed a lot of facts. If he is correct, and I don't say he isn't, it will all come out in due time. But right now, overall the comments here have been more from speculative railfans than from a group of K4Pacifics.