Southern Tier - why so much upkeep for little traffic?

You can read the STB agreement...it was available here a long while back.

Traffic's down because everyone's hurting, the economy is sluggish and oil prices are causing a lot of inflation. It makes sense for the NYS&W to let the big roads handle traffic they don't have to right now, and eat the expenses of added fuel costs on it. They can concentrate on only hauling the local traffic for the online customers.

They have to maintain this line per the lease - they DO NOT OWN this section, they only lease it. The terms of the lease dictate what they need to do. The whole idea behind the lease is the usual how to scam the government routine - the state's not going to hand much money to big, wealthy, strong NS - but they'll sure give it to little NYS&W - so NS gets to basically railbank the line, and get it back in good shape on someone else's dime down the road if they want it. If not, they can extend the lease or lease it to some other road.

Who owns the NYS&W? Who knows - the company is no longer publicly held and there's no easy way to find out what the principals hold at this date.

Given the NYS&W is leasing CSX/NS units rather than run their own units, which normally is more expensive, it would seem both big roads have some ability to call the shots. There is at least one rumor claiming the big roads wanted them to dump the units more than 40 years old, but some of the SD45s are pushing on 40 right now, and the GP38-2 leasers aren't a whole lot newer than that, so it didn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

But NS doesnt get the line back next year when the line is at 40mph. They have 15 more years of the lease to go in which the NYSW needs to maintain the line to those standards. NYSW either had to be told by NS that they would be running trackage trains over there or they had to be pretty sure they could secure state money for each of the next 15 years to keep the line like this. Otherwise there is no gain for them.

It is obviously a clause, like in any lease/rent contract, that guarentees the one who leases the property from the owner guarantees to return it in as good or better shape than accepted. I wouldn't get hung up over the arguement, though.

But they're not returning it! They're keeping it for 15 more years!

That's not the point. That clause would be in there if they were keeping for 9, 99, or 999 years, too!

Yes, this clause just means CNY must return the proeprty to NS in the same condition as they found it... not trashed. Only makes sense.

I do kind of wonder why it goes into effect when it does though... i.e., if the speed doesn't matter to NS why does NYS&W have to have it back up to 40 MPH now rather than at the end of the lease period? And if the speed DOES matter to NS... why did CNY get to let track conditions slide for the first few years of the lease anyway? Not sure if it's just NS keeping it's options open, if the track speeds were allowed to drop for awhile as a concession/favor to NYS&W/CNY, or if NS has something on the back burner.

In the meantime, it's frustrating that NS and CSX don't utilize the line to any fraction of it's potential, and also are making darn sure nobody else can either.

Smoke without steam. That's all. Forty mph is just a standard for arguement sake. And probably about the best that can be achieved with little resources.

Guys, one thing which is not being concidered in this thread is that the original lease / contract between the CNY and NS has not been revised and or replaced by a differnt one. There are several items in the lease which where not acheived; the removal of the signaling system for one. This alone, if you read the 2004 lease, gives the NYSW / CNY right to back out of the lease. When the FRA did not approve the block signal removal application, alot of money was dumped into the signal system with the results that running time is much improved over the line. This is money that was going to go to track work . The days of the SU 100s outlawing in Port Jervis and requiring 16 hours to reach little ferry are long gone, most trips now being completed by one train crew. The NYSW will continue to make improvements, but 40mph track BH to PJ is still a number of years away. Lets face it, this line will not see alot of traffic for the next few years but must be kept in place. 10 to 15 years from now, lets hope that we see 6 trains a day over the line. Its all about saving it for future capacity out of the North Jersey area.

It's not a let's hope situation, L&HR; and definitely not for railfans. New York harbor is loading and unloading more and more containers everyday with no place to go. Sooner or later this line will come into play for having to carry more traffic. I am sure this point has not been missed by NS, CP, NYSW, WNYP, or other state(s), regional, and national transportation planners. In addition to being available, it is also (still) a good high and wide route! It is an excellent routing to avoid the Buffalo Bottleneck, too.

Well as was said before and why this whole topic was started is that there is a "maintenance blitz" going on between Binghamton and PJ. I have not seen any documents or changes to the lease anywhere but I do remember hearing that CNY is getting a lot of money from the state of NY in 2008 and 2009. I'm sure that will be used to upgrade and maintain the tracks. I think the track will be in good shape by the end of this year with maybe some leftovers to tackle in 2009.

From NS Development - and I'll have more on this after Wednesday. I'll get heck for this. But this is not a rumor. Traffic is such that the NS LV line is at a choking point. Development officials say they are working on beginning one a day each day service again to get to the port of Newark. Similar to the pair Southbound out of Binghamton on that circuitous route.

I'll try to find out more Wednesday at my meeting. But my last meeting with them, they were looking for a Labor Day start up. However, operationally coinciding with the STB ruling on the Patriot Corridor in October could delay that Labor day start up for Newark to Bellevue, OH via Buffalo. The other factor is a reciprical on the NYSW Sparta route. Chew on it over the holiday. More Thursday.

There is no bottleneck at BUFF. Sure CP-Draw, but Bison is vastly underutilized. It's a block swapper. The grunt work is at Gang Mills Yard. H-88 has returned to Elmira here. Those cars head out on 309 tonight. Happy 4th all!

Well, if you look at the NYSDOT plans for improving freight and passenger rail in up upstate NY, there is a need to get the Water Level Route fluid enough to move both commodities, especially in winter. One of the projects is to improve things in Buffalo. Improving the Southern Tier Route...the old Delaware Division included...could be parts of that improvement and by pass Buffalo.

Well as was said before and why this whole topic was started is that there is a "maintenance blitz" going on between Binghamton and PJ.

No "maintenance blitz" is taking place right now. I don't know where that rumor started.
There is a surfacing crew out there doing spot tamping, but that is it. The only work for BH to PJ this year is the completion of the signal rehab on the double track 251 sections east of Lordville. No tie installation, from what I understand.