• Genesis discussion (AMD-103, P40DC, P42DC)

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by ThirdRail7
 
MEC407 wrote:Those units are often (erroneously) referred to as P32s. Definitely makes things confusing!

The correct/official designation, per the GE builder's plate, is DASH 8-32BWH, as seen here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/pfsullivan ... 2/sizes/l/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There's nothing erroneous about it. Amtrak designated them as P32-BWH. The dual modes are designated P32AC-DM. That's why they are both referred to as P32s. If said to someone "get on the Genesis Series 2 locomotive", they'd look at you as if you had two heads.
  by MEC407
 
As soon as I posted that, I knew someone would come along and say "But Amtrak calls them P32s, and Amtrak's designation is the only one that matters!" At least it didn't take long. :wink:

And you're right, of course. Railroads have a long history of coming up with their own designations for locomotives.

I will continue to refer to them by the name bestowed upon them by The General. :P

As far as the dual modes are concerned, the GE builders' plate (or in this case builders' sticker) actually does say P32AC-DM, which is the official GE model name. "GENESIS SERIES 2" is at the bottom of the sticker, and refers to the overall family of locomotives. http://hebners.net/amtrak/amtGEN32/amt705BP.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
  by bulk88
 
All over the internet, there has been rumor that an avalanche of used P42 Genesis locos will flood the commuter and state sponsored states trains after the Siemans diesel loco is delivered. Or 16 AMTK P40s will rise from the graveyard and pop back into services on the state sponsored trains.

I looked at my local CDOT and MNCR P32 and P40s, and they are falling apart, fist through the wall falling apart. I made gallery of their sorry state https://www.flickr.com/photos/88941340@ ... 4630331710" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . IDK how well maintained the AMTK Genesis are, but I think its a load of bullshit that any Genesis will be reused on other RRs, and the only secondary market for them is scrap metal value. Agree or disagree?
  by runningwithscalpels
 
You can't use CDOT's patch job P40s as a barometer to judge Amtrak's 42's. Anything the state of Connecticut's DOT touches turns into a giant turd. Yes, they were beaten to death by Amtrak on the Autotrain for 15 years first, but continued lack of maintenance is not helping.

Sure, some of Metro-North's engines look like garbage BUT they run and seem to run reasonably well, but those probably don't have a vast appeal for resale with their third rail component vs. 42's. A coat of paint and some bondo isn't a cost-prohibitive preclusion from resale. 201 was the first MNR Genny rebuilt and probably hasn't seen a drop of paint since being purged of the G-String scheme. (There are people on this forum who have spent the locos' entire service lives running them and can actually comment on their performance.) In fact, the final MNR engine hasn't even come back from rebuild yet, so it is certainly premature to write those off as a wash, but again of all the Genesis locos those probably won't be sold. Metro-North's 32's still look better than their Amtrak counterparts that run on the Empire Corridor though!

As for Amtrak's 42s it seems like there are good eggs and bad eggs with those. The good eggs have potential to see resale, the bad eggs obviously not. The Genesis engine was designed to fit anywhere so there is much to be said for that. Don't forget you also have VIA in Canada who also runs them.

States are not interested in buying new power if they can get a reasonably decent used alternative. So yes, you probably will see the better 42's be dispersed in that manner when the Chargers do show up. The mothballed 40's are probably a bit of a stretch.
  by electricron
 
runningwithscalpels wrote: States are not interested in buying new power if they can get a reasonably decent used alternative. So yes, you probably will see the better 42's be dispersed in that manner when the Chargers do show up. The mothballed 40's are probably a bit of a stretch.
Every Charger to date has been ordered by the State's. Amtrak hasn't ordered a single one. So it isn't true that States are not interested in buying new power.
  by runningwithscalpels
 
Sorry, I live in Connecticut, the land of doing everything half-assed ;)
  by NorthWest
 
bulk88 wrote:All over the internet, there has been rumor that an avalanche of used P42 Genesis locos will flood the commuter and state sponsored states trains after the Siemens diesel loco is delivered. Or 16 AMTK P40s will rise from the graveyard and pop back into services on the state sponsored trains.
It's just a rumor. To me, it is far more likely that nothing will really happen to the P42DCs. With wreck attrition and locomotive shortages during the winter months when trains are delayed, having extra locomotives available will be helpful.

This is the final nail in the coffin for the hope that more P40DCs will be rebuilt for service, though.
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
The secondhand market for the Gennies hinges on the relative ease of which they can be kit-upgradeable into Tier 4 locomotives. The MBTA's new HSP-46 locos are built with GE GEVO-12 prime movers, the same exact model GE AC traction motors as the P32AC-DM, and GE alternators lightly evolved from what's in the Gennies. It is essentially "P46AC" power inside an MPI carbody and trucks. And GE and MPI purposefully designed it that way to enable kit upgrades to older power. GE has a huge market dominance in components, and sees that as its highest-margin opportunity in the passenger market vs. building complete locomotives (where it nets its highest margins peddling in freight-land). And MPI has gotten into the gut-and-rebuild business cleanrooming old but fully serviceable carbodies and trucks into brand new modern locomotives (like the MP32PH-Q, a standard MP36 engine and cab that inhabits like a hermit crab the shell of a gutted GP40WH-2).

It's pretty clear where this is headed. The HSP-46 package is primed to hit the market as an upgrade kit. MPI has proven it can do a successful kitting job on old EMD product with more conservative MPXpress guts, with them likely attempting more of the same the more dispersal Geeps, F40PH's, F59PH's, etc. (whichever models are most appropriate) they can get their hands on. But the GE hegemony under the hood on the HSP-46's is tailor-made for Gennie upgrade kits. And I believe GE did indeed float that idea to Amtrak as a Gennie remanufacture option before the Charger order was placed and made the national options on the Siemens product more or less the only locked-in path for the future of the diesel fleet. If the monocoque carbodies are in good shape--and they generally are--the Gennies *should* (this, of course, has yet to be proven definitively...but with GE being the primary designer it should nonetheless) be the easiest make of all to kit. The Gennie carbody keeps the weight down, such that a P40 or P42 kitted to HSP-46 spec should not need to weigh any more than a P32 (which is 6K lbs. heavier than the others) in the same frame. Lighter than it would weigh in the new (and pretty heavy) MPI carbody the HSP-46 has, with a target range equal or within weight tolerance of the existing monocoque design. Update the cab and the computers, but otherwise it's the same traction that's been proven to work for 2 decades in the P32's, and a more or less stock GEVO prime mover that's kicking the freight market's butt right now.

If Amtrak drains the Charger options that's a bare minimum of 200 P42 and P40 units (probably more, but assume a worst-case attrition rate of carbodies too beat-up for remanufacturing suitability or necessary to scrap for parts) that can be remanufactured for re-sale into "P46AC" Tier 4 next-gen Gennies at lower price point for commuter rail buyers than buying a make with all-new carbody. And be able to float a kitting offer to VIA Rail when it needs to rebuild its P42's, since they're not exactly flush with enough cash to make buys of new power an easy thing to swing.


Again...all speculation until it's attempted. But that's what the 2 partners behind the HSP-46 design see as the real paydirt behind their efforts. GE as the component supplier, MPI as one of the second-source vendors that actually performs the kitting retrofit. It sure wasn't the pain and suffering of dealing with the MBTA's procurements that got their attention to tag-team up on that design collaboration. I would not be surprised if, at conclusion of the T's HSP-46 order and first-year warranty period, GE either takes a spare P42 still in their own possession or go to Amtrak and buy up 1 or 2 good-condition units stored at Beech Grove to do up their demonstration unit on the kitting. Amtrak will be happy to oblige, because if they're intent on eventually draining the Charger options for a total diesel fleet replacement they get way better resale value on the P42's and P40's as units with 20+ years more operating lifespan in remanufacture vs. razorblade fodder. I mean, it's not like they are ever going to hold onto those things for future-consideration NPCU conversions. Three-fifths of the current NPCU's are going into storage when the bi-level corridor cars replace them with proper cab cars and lower-level baggage areas on every route but the Cascades and Downeaster. Once the P42's have done their obligatory 2-3 post-retirement years in contingency storage they're outta there and it's just the off-cycle procurement P32's lingering on a few more years.
  by Backshophoss
 
The Cummins Prime Mover is still a R+D project,has yet to do a test run on it's own,is slated for
the Charger,the better bet will be the GE repower kit for the P40's/42's.
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
Backshophoss wrote:The Cummins Prime Mover is still a R+D project,has yet to do a test run on it's own,is slated for
the Charger,the better bet will be the GE repower kit for the P40's/42's.
Too late for that. They've already got California intending to drain all of its state-level options, and Amtrak's way forward is draining the 200+ national options. While the back-ended numbers do give them a way out with the Charger if it's a debacle, a Gennie repower ends up an entirely 100% new procurement. And they're just not going to do that because they simply won't get the funding for it after backing out of the Charger contract. They will reliably get option-order funding for the Chargers, though, when the factory's already hot.


Charger's supposed to be modular enough that if the Cummins experiment doesn't work out they should be able to substitute the GE prime mover they should've been using all along without much problem. And be able to swap out the Cummins engines on the state-sponsored base order that would've already shipped by then. Or at least that was the technical feasibility gamed out by far more technically knowledgeable posters several pages back on the main Charger thread. It would induce a major delay and significant cost overrun of course, but it wouldn't necessarily back them into a corner if Cummins absolutely was a no-go and a design change had to be made.
  by NorthWest
 
If they are repowered and rebuilt, I suspect they will not be Tier IV for several reasons. The first is that they do not require it, being Tier 0/I power that would only need to meet the original standard in a rebuild. Fitting either an EGR or SCR system in the Genesis carbody with the GEVO (which is substantially taller than the FDL) would be rather difficult without serious modification. The HSP-46 is more than a foot taller than the Genesis carbody, likely because of the prime mover. A rebuild is certainly possible, it would just be difficult.
  by DutchRailnut
 
repowering with a GEVO would not be problem at least two foot space above FDL, problem is a GEVO requires a total different cooling system to get to better EPA performance.
if your upping HP you need to totally upgrade high voltage traction circuits including electric cabinets , now your almost replacing entire locomotive.
yes a passenger locomotive does not need upgrading if rebuild as designed, its grandfathered.
But if you upgrade the locomotive it becomes a new locomotive for EPA purposes, and has to go to tier IV.
  by R36 Combine Coach
 
F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:Once the P42's have done their obligatory 2-3 post-retirement years in contingency storage they're outta there and it's just the off-cycle procurement P32's lingering on a few more years.
I could see some P32s ending up at NJT for Boonton Line, Bay Head, Cutoff and (possibly) West Trenton services (after all, the North River tubes are wired with third rail).
  by Fan Railer
 
R36 Combine Coach wrote:
F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:Once the P42's have done their obligatory 2-3 post-retirement years in contingency storage they're outta there and it's just the off-cycle procurement P32's lingering on a few more years.
I could see some P32s ending up at NJT for Boonton Line, Bay Head, Cutoff and (possibly) West Trenton services (after all, the North River tubes are wired with third rail).
LOL.... maybe if we get a more transit-friendly governor... I don't even see the Lack Cutoff opening before I retired (in 50 years) based on how things are progressing currently...
  by Backshophoss
 
It's unknown if the 3rd rail is still useable,Sandy may have laid waste to the 660 VDC feeder cables in the tubes,
or if the MTA(LIRR) used the feeder connections to power the 3rd rail in their Westside Yard.
In any case,years of rust to remove before use. :(
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