Penn Station, Madness and Train Boarding

I don't think it's so much about people thinking they won't make it to the train. They're not going to close the doors while 100 people are still on the escalator and another 200 on the platform. The mad rush is all about wanting a seat. Regardless of the odds people want to get down as quickly as possible and try to get those single seats on a multi-level or if they are in a group they know that the only way to sit together is to physically be on the train before everyone else. Finally there is the fear of either standing (not at all unusual on a NEC local and even on certain NEC expresses) or being stuck in the middle of a three seater. Early boarding, a very good example of this is frequently the 5:03 and 5:14 39XX trains are posted as much as 15 minutes early. Boarding is a breeze. Another fly in the ointment is minor delays. Let's say the 5:14 is five to ten minutes delayed. People who would normally catch the 5:28 will think "oh I can get the earlier train" or "oh great, the whole night will be delayed, I'd better get on this train while I can because the next one may never show up". The result is that the first train experiences a crush load that neither the stairs nor the train can handle and the following train pulls out first with dozens of empty seats.

Steampowered wrote: I understand the rapid pace of PS, but i think its more psychologically people dont think they can make it to the train in 10mins, or even 5.

Hear track number > find gate > follow heard > walk to train. It doesn't take more than 2 minutes (except when it's travel season, all the darn bags!!), heck people need to stop cramming into the first three cars, they aren't going to just close the doors and leave right at 5:33 (and all trains have the extra minute added from the public timetable as well).

lirr415 wrote:

Steampowered wrote: I understand the rapid pace of PS, but i think its more psychologically people dont think they can make it to the train in 10mins, or even 5.

Hear track number > find gate > follow heard > walk to train. It doesn't take more than 2 minutes (except when it's travel season, all the darn bags!!), heck people need to stop cramming into the first three cars, they aren't going to just close the doors and leave right at 5:33 (and all trains have the extra minute added from the public timetable as well).

So explain peoples behavior genius ? In the last year i have seen 2 elderly people run over , and woman with a 2 kids get knocked over. People push people down the steps. Also all knowing one, what if you are on the other side of penn, how long does it take for the average person. I know it takes more than 10 mins , because i timed it myself to see how long it would take me. I was at the end of the line and as i got down the step the train was 3 mins to leaving. It takes 7 mins to get to the train. Also i do track tournaments, so i can run. I have a rule if the train is 5 mins or less to leaving , i just dont try.

Steampowered wrote:

lirr415 wrote:

Steampowered wrote: I understand the rapid pace of PS, but i think its more psychologically people dont think they can make it to the train in 10mins, or even 5.

Hear track number > find gate > follow heard > walk to train. It doesn't take more than 2 minutes (except when it's travel season, all the darn bags!!), heck people need to stop cramming into the first three cars, they aren't going to just close the doors and leave right at 5:33 (and all trains have the extra minute added from the public timetable as well).

So explain peoples behavior genius ? In the last year i have seen 2 elderly people run over , and woman with a 2 kids get knocked over. People push people down the steps. Also all knowing one, what if you are on the other side of penn, how long does it take for the average person. I know it takes more than 10 mins , because i timed it myself to see how long it would take me. I was at the end of the line and as i got down the step the train was 3 mins to leaving. It takes 7 mins to get to the train. Also i do track tournaments, so i can run. I have a rule if the train is 5 mins or less to leaving , i just dont try.

Well Genius, go down to the mid-level. Try boarding there without the rest of the sheep. Go to the east end of the station as they almost always try to fill the front of the train first.

OportRailfan wrote:

Steampowered wrote:

lirr415 wrote:

Steampowered wrote: I understand the rapid pace of PS, but i think its more psychologically people dont think they can make it to the train in 10mins, or even 5.

Hear track number > find gate > follow heard > walk to train. It doesn't take more than 2 minutes (except when it's travel season, all the darn bags!!), heck people need to stop cramming into the first three cars, they aren't going to just close the doors and leave right at 5:33 (and all trains have the extra minute added from the public timetable as well).

So explain peoples behavior genius ? In the last year i have seen 2 elderly people run over , and woman with a 2 kids get knocked over. People push people down the steps. Also all knowing one, what if you are on the other side of penn, how long does it take for the average person. I know it takes more than 10 mins , because i timed it myself to see how long it would take me. I was at the end of the line and as i got down the step the train was 3 mins to leaving. It takes 7 mins to get to the train. Also i do track tournaments, so i can run. I have a rule if the train is 5 mins or less to leaving , i just dont try.

Well Genius, go down to the mid-level. Try boarding there without the rest of the sheep. Go to the east end of the station as they almost always try to fill the front of the train first.

So where are the sign directing people there ? How would someone unfamiliar with Penn Station know to go there? Is there addition seating there ?

andegold wrote:I don't think it's so much about people thinking they won't make it to the train. They're not going to close the doors while 100 people are still on the escalator and another 200 on the platform. The mad rush is all about wanting a seat. Regardless of the odds people want to get down as quickly as possible and try to get those single seats on a multi-level or if they are in a group they know that the only way to sit together is to physically be on the train before everyone else. Finally there is the fear of either standing (not at all unusual on a NEC local and even on certain NEC expresses) or being stuck in the middle of a three seater. Early boarding, a very good example of this is frequently the 5:03 and 5:14 39XX trains are posted as much as 15 minutes early. Boarding is a breeze. Another fly in the ointment is minor delays. Let's say the 5:14 is five to ten minutes delayed. People who would normally catch the 5:28 will think "oh I can get the earlier train" or "oh great, the whole night will be delayed, I'd better get on this train while I can because the next one may never show up". The result is that the first train experiences a crush load that neither the stairs nor the train can handle and the following train pulls out first with dozens of empty seats.

This I believe is truly accurate. I did the commute into NY for about a decade and these describe what goes through the mind of your average commuter - getting a seat or "I'd better get on this train while I can because the next one may never show up". If you got on the tail end of a boarding at the end of the crowd during a rush hour train you were guaranteed to be standing most / all of your ride home (depending on your stop). As sometimes trains would sit at the platform I'd try to "guess" which one was my train going home. Most of the time I'd get it right and I'd be there on the platform or even better in my choice of seat as the crowds are coming down the stairs but then there were those times I was wrong ("hmm.. why aren't the people coming down.. oh crap! wrong track!"). In the case of train delays.. I've seen that many times! Sometimes I miss that commute...

I can only imagine what the rush must be like for the last trains of the night.

Speaking of which, what exactly would happen if the last train of the night was canceled for some reason?

Ken S. wrote:I can only imagine what the rush must be like for the last trains of the night.

Speaking of which, what exactly would happen if the last train of the night was canceled for some reason?

The last train is never cancelled! They would cancel the second to last train and make it the last train. Or if there was some other issue the train will run, just really really really late. Ive worked the last train for a long time, and the latest ive left NY is close to 3am. But if it was cancelled, then you would just have to wait for the first train in the morning, which isn't THAT long of wait, only about 3-4 hours. Not great, but not the worst thing in the world!

Jtgshu wrote:

Ken S. wrote:I can only imagine what the rush must be like for the last trains of the night.

Speaking of which, what exactly would happen if the last train of the night was canceled for some reason?

The last train is never cancelled! They would cancel the second to last train and make it the last train. Or if there was some other issue the train will run, just really really really late. Ive worked the last train for a long time, and the latest ive left NY is close to 3am. But if it was cancelled, then you would just have to wait for the first train in the morning, which isn't THAT long of wait, only about 3-4 hours. Not great, but not the worst thing in the world!

That might work for the NEC where any ALP or MU set can be grabbed and used, but not for NJCL or Midtown Direct where they need an ALP set.

When they are short an ALP set, they will steal 3200's train set, which arrives in NY around 200am. Also, 3800 sometimes is a push pull set. There are several trains that arrive in NYP inbetween 1245am and 2am which will go to sunnyside to yard, but if they need the equipment they will turn it and run it out to where they need to. There is also 3892 and 3292 which arrive right around the leaving time for 3805, so they can do a quick turn on that stuff as well instead of yarding it in NYP or Sunnyside.

To expand on JT's comments, they have sent equipment from the MMC to compensate for shortage of push pull trains due to a service disruption. Additionally, NJT has occasionally commandeered Amtrak crews to run the last local to meet employees impacted by service disruptions that resulted in crew shortages.

Short of a major infrastructure problem (wires down, portal stuck open, track car derailment blocking Bergen Int, etc) or enroute equipment failure, the last batch of locals run.

If NY ever bothered to undertake planning and infrastructure improvements like other major cities around the world, think Paris, London, Tokyo, even Philly, then we wouldn't have this problem. All these cities embarked on creating regional express services by linking lines that previously ended at stub stations. The new services provide multiple stations throughout the city and get people a lot closer to their final destination. Imagine NJ trains that go to Jersey City, then downtown via new tubes, heading to midtown with stops at 14th and Grand Central, then continuing to White Plains or CT. Or Long Island trains going to Penn then continuing north with stops at West 42nd, West 57th, West 72nd, before continuing to Yonkers and Tarrytown. Our problem is having 3 states, and three RR's, plus city transit all vying for their own interests instead of working together as a region. A 2nd Ave subway for instance, instead of integrating with other subway services could have been a backbone of a regional system that had all 3 RR's running thru it to relieve GCT and Penn with connections to new tubes to NJ downtown. But it's been over 20 years and we can't even get Moynihan station going or evict MSG with an incentive land swap to west side rail yards.

Firstly, how much through ridership would there actually be? Because there's a very good reason SEPTA dropped the R# designations for their regional railroad division; they found that the through ridership was not worth the inefficient pairings that existed because of the rigid structure. I would think it would be even worse in the NYC area.

Secondly, you are completely barking up the wrong tree with your criticism of the Second Avenue Subway. Utterly different purpose, utterly different reason for existing than a regional connector. It is, plain and simply, a local train to relieve the incredibly overcapacity Lexington Avenue Line and has been needed for decades. It's existence has nothing to do with any pipe dream regional connector. If you don't understand that, I have to question how much you really understand about transportation planning.

A local train could certainly be part of it. As for regional running, it's not so much about thru service but the inefficiency of terminal trains. Disburse the loading and unloading by having multiple stations that get people closer to their destinations. NYC subway started it all with thru running that's why we have an F train from Brroklyn to Queens thru Manhattan, and a D from the Bronx to Brooklyn for example. Terminals get jammed.

drewh wrote:If NY ever bothered to undertake planning and infrastructure improvements like other major cities around the world, think Paris, London, Tokyo, even Philly, then we wouldn't have this problem. All these cities embarked on creating regional express services by linking lines that previously ended at stub stations. The new services provide multiple stations throughout the city and get people a lot closer to their final destination. Imagine NJ trains that go to Jersey City, then downtown via new tubes, heading to midtown with stops at 14th and Grand Central, then continuing to White Plains or CT. Or Long Island trains going to Penn then continuing north with stops at West 42nd, West 57th, West 72nd, before continuing to Yonkers and Tarrytown. Our problem is having 3 states, and three RR's, plus city transit all vying for their own interests instead of working together as a region. A 2nd Ave subway for instance, instead of integrating with other subway services could have been a backbone of a regional system that had all 3 RR's running thru it to relieve GCT and Penn with connections to new tubes to NJ downtown. But it's been over 20 years and we can't even get Moynihan station going or evict MSG with an incentive land swap to west side rail yards.

Exactly. Why do we need LIRR, NJT, MetroN, Septa. Penns station and GCT. They need to be merged and be made modern. If you leave NJT to Wilmington DE, its 4 trains. If leave Metro N, to NJ , its at least 3 trains and a 2 subways.