Penn Station, Madness and Train Boarding

Honestly, any traveler has the right to be confused at Penn Station regarding NJT (or any RR for that matter). Generally, the signage there is horrific. And matters aren't helped by the fact that 3 railroads share the station, and none of the display boards actually say which railroad's trains are being displayed.

ONLY about a few months ago did NJT finally update the monitors to have color-coded destination signs, as they have in Secaucus and Newark. Prior to that, it was black and white monochrome displays. Many of which sat atop a joint NJT/Amtrak departure board. With no sign above the display explaining they were NJT departures.

On the EXIT concourse, from tracks 1-12, NONE of the trackside boards work properly. They were garbage from day one. Often I'm running to catch a train, and if those boards worked, I could scan them and just go down the track for my train - rather than having to check the full board every time. LIRR's work and are beautiful. Amtrak has them upstairs. But that whole EXIT concourse has terrible signage. Even the track stairways don't have proper numbers above them (they are cardboard signs added when it was realized that there weren't any signs at all)

Same goes for the new 7th Ave concourse. Instead of putting in large display boards (like the LIRR has) they put in flat screen displays, and only after the concourse had been open for a while (they originally only had TV monitors in the walls).

Simply put, NJT train information at Penn is terrible. And I can't blame anyone for not understanding it or being able to easily find a train.

James, funny that you point out that LIRR's departure boards are actually pretty good. People here on Long Island don't believe me when I tell them that LIRR is actually a class act compared to some other major commuter railroads in the Northeast.

Umm..can we review, please?

JamesRR wrote:
On the EXIT concourse, from tracks 1-12, NONE of the trackside boards work properly. They were garbage from day one. Often I'm running to catch a train, and if those boards worked, I could scan them and just go down the track for my train - rather than having to check the full board every time. LIRR's work and are beautiful. Amtrak has them upstairs. But that whole EXIT concourse has terrible signage. Even the track stairways don't have proper numbers above them (they are cardboard signs added when it was realized that there weren't any signs at all)

They didn't have signs where?

JamesRR wrote:
On the EXIT concourse, from tracks 1-12, NONE of the trackside boards work properly. They were garbage from day one. Often I'm running to catch a train, and if those boards worked, I could scan them and just go down the track for my train - rather than having to check the full board every time. LIRR's work and are beautiful. Amtrak has them upstairs. But that whole EXIT concourse has terrible signage. Even the track stairways don't have proper numbers above them (they are cardboard signs added when it was realized that there weren't any signs at all)

What area has terrible signage?

JamesRR wrote:
But that whole EXIT concourse has terrible signage.

Could it be the EXIT concourse had terrible information because it was the EXIT concourse? Perhaps they really didn't intend for people to go to that level, turn the up escalator off (with people on it to boot) and run down to the tracks. Only after building a new concourse and realizing that people were STILL going to descend to the tracks did they put up any sort of signs.

That is because, as you said, the intend is for people to exit to that level and board from the upper level and the 7th AVE concourse.

At this point, if you have a smart phone, it will tell you exactly where the train is boarding. You barely need signs, let alone color coded signs with destinations. For years, people managed to read a simple sign and board trains. I remember when they were written on a blackboard...in chalk.

Were people smarted back then? Wait...don't answer that.

Speaking of broken signs, the NJT Newark Airport stop looks nice and new.

Why do none of the signs on the actual platform work?

jamesinclair wrote:Speaking of broken signs, the NJT Newark Airport stop looks nice and new.

Why do none of the signs on the actual platform work?

I've wondered that myself for years. Sometimes they will have info but its always wrong.

I think the port authority owns that system & it's not properly tied into the new departurevision/color code system that NJTR & AMTK have been using.

I remember when they took out the old CRT's from Trenton, around the same time they were installing the supports for hanging the flat screens vs have them on the wall. The whole time of the Trenton renovation was very interesting in terms of all the changes at the various stations including NYP and the airport rail link.

JamesRR wrote:
On the EXIT concourse, from tracks 1-12, NONE of the trackside boards work properly. They were garbage from day one. Often I'm running to catch a train, and if those boards worked, I could scan them and just go down the track for my train - rather than having to check the full board every time. LIRR's work and are beautiful. Amtrak has them upstairs. But that whole EXIT concourse has terrible signage. Even the track stairways don't have proper numbers above them (they are cardboard signs added when it was realized that there weren't any signs at all)

They didn't have signs where?

There were no proper signs installed over the stairwells on the exit concourse from tracks 1-12. When the concourse was renovated in the late 90s/early 2000s (new flooring, marble on the walls, stainless steel columns/doorways), there weren't signs put up over the track entrances. So those yellow ones were added since there weren't proper signs.

JamesRR wrote:
But that whole EXIT concourse has terrible signage.

What area has terrible signage?

The entire corridor. There are official Amtrak signs, which follow the Amtrak signage scheme (navy blue with red stripe). There are NJT signs (Serif font on black). There are hastily made black-on-yellow signs, then there are leftover white-on-blue temporary signs put up during the Republican National Convention some years back.

Could it be the EXIT concourse had terrible information because it was the EXIT concourse? Perhaps they really didn't intend for people to go to that level, turn the up escalator off (with people on it to boot) and run down to the tracks. Only after building a new concourse and realizing that people were STILL going to descend to the tracks did they put up any sort of signs.

That is because, as you said, the intend is for people to exit to that level and board from the upper level and the 7th AVE concourse.

If that's the point, then NJT didn't do a good job of making that clear. They never designated the EXIT concourse as an 'exit only concourse.' And furthermore, with the current setup of stairways on the platforms, it's impossible to enforce. ALL of the stairways on any given platform are accessible by passengers, including those to the EXIT concourse. When you have near 1000 people going for a train, all the stairways are needed, and people will fan out and use them all. There's no simply way the EXIT concourse staircases could be used for exiting only, and the 7 Ave ones for entering only. All of the stairways that run the length of the platform are needed to both load and unload trains. As it is, with the stairways current available, crowding on platforms is a huge problem when a train unloads.

I don't disagree that separating out loading/unloading by staircase makes sense, but with the amount of people coming in during rush hour, it would be a challenge to work out logistically.

At this point, if you have a smart phone, it will tell you exactly where the train is boarding. You barely need signs, let alone color coded signs with destinations. For years, people managed to read a simple sign and board trains. I remember when they were written on a blackboard...in chalk.

Smart phones? Seriously? Yes, you can find info on a smartphone, but that's no excuse to not have proper signage and departure boards in a train station. Barely need signs? Of course people need signs to find their way in a transit facility. The phone doesn't point to a track entrance, or an area of the terminal where a particular RR operates from. Of all the transit facilities in existence, Penn Station probably needs proper, well thought out signage more than anywhere.

JamesRR wrote: If that's the point, then NJT didn't do a good job of making that clear. They never designated the EXIT concourse as an 'exit only concourse.' And furthermore, with the current setup of stairways on the platforms, it's impossible to enforce. ALL of the stairways on any given platform are accessible by passengers, including those to the EXIT concourse. When you have near 1000 people going for a train, all the stairways are needed, and people will fan out and use them all. There's no simply way the EXIT concourse staircases could be used for exiting only, and the 7 Ave ones for entering only. All of the stairways that run the length of the platform are needed to both load and unload trains. As it is, with the stairways current available, crowding on platforms is a huge problem when a train unloads.

I don't disagree that separating out loading/unloading by staircase makes sense, but with the amount of people coming in during rush hour, it would be a challenge to work out logistically.

Yes, because piling them all together is working out so well! The reality of the situation is PENN is overstuffed. There are no easy answers as more passengers and equipment compete for limited space. However, I think the exit concourse being used for exiting (as originally intended) would go a long way in alleviating the crunch that is caused as unloading trains try to fight there way against the surge of loading trains.

JamesRR wrote:

ThirdRail7 wrote: At this point, if you have a smart phone, it will tell you exactly where the train is boarding. You barely need signs, let alone color coded signs with destinations. For years, people managed to read a simple sign and board trains. I remember when they were written on a blackboard...in chalk.

Smart phones? Seriously? Yes, you can find info on a smartphone, but that's no excuse to not have proper signage and departure boards in a train station. Barely need signs? Of course people need signs to find their way in a transit facility. The phone doesn't point to a track entrance, or an area of the terminal where a particular RR operates from. Of all the transit facilities in existence, Penn Station probably needs proper, well thought out signage more than anywhere.

Yes, seriously. I predict in the very near future, a lot of the ways we think and do business will go the way of the Dodo! When it happens, a lot of the signage and personnel will disappear. All you will need is the track number above the entrance, and the rest of the information will be displayed on your electronic device or waiting room screens. New passenger equipment will have the destinations and train number displayed on the outside of the train which will allow you to make sure you're headed in the right direction.

The need for track side monitors identifying the stops will no longer be as great. Things like system timetables will be obsolete. Heck, printed timetables are starting to disappear. Do you remember when Clever Commute tapped into the track assignment feed in NYP and sent it to their members? An official system like Departurevision that posts the track automatically can't be far off. If they could find a way to program track assignments in NYP, they would eliminate some of the ushers and train announcers. All of this adds up to less maintenance and expense for the carriers.

Unfortunately, I don't think the costs savings will be passed on to the riders.

i just think that greater than 10 mins boarding times are the key. People dont think they can make it to the train in ten minutes, so you get a herd of people fighting down the steps. Why cant NJ always have trains ready for assignment 30 mins ahead of departure ?

Steampowered wrote:i just think that greater than 10 mins boarding times are the key. People dont think they can make it to the train in ten minutes, so you get a herd of people fighting down the steps. Why cant NJ always have trains ready for assignment 30 mins ahead of departure ?

Track assignments can change so very quickly. A lot of times during rush hour, trains aren't sitting there on the platform; they are coming in from Sunnyside Yard. The dispatcher can route them anywhere and things change.

New York Penn can't operate the way Hoboken or Grand Central Terminals do. It's a station coordinating 3 different railroads.

Oh so how would you like to be on the platform 15 minutes prior to the train even arriving in the station on the "designated" track, and 5 minutes before departure, they have a track change? Then what? You have to run up the stairs, run over 5 tracks, and run down to barely catch it? Sounds like an effective way to run NYP, said no one ever..

Just like Nick said, you cannot do that with Penn Station, it cannot be run like a TERMINAL.

Sometimes NJT especially does call a train without the equipment being there. They call it "pre-loading" As soon as the train comes in, the doors are supposed to open up and the people will board. It works, sometimes, but if the train is late coming in, and they do that, there is the added possibility that the track has to be changed and EVERYONE down there waiting, including the crew waiting for the train, are the last to know and hear it over the PA.

"there is a track change....all passengers waiting on track 3 for the 558 train to Long Branch, please go up and over to track 8, the 558 train to long branch will be boarding on track 8" then you hear a very loud groan and choice words as everyone runs up and over, and usually the crew is the last to get there because the crowds block their path!

Jtgshu wrote:Sometimes NJT especially does call a train without the equipment being there. They call it "pre-loading" As soon as the train comes in, the doors are supposed to open up and the people will board. It works, sometimes, but if the train is late coming in, and they do that, there is the added possibility that the track has to be changed and EVERYONE down there waiting, including the crew waiting for the train, are the last to know and hear it over the PA.

"there is a track change....all passengers waiting on track 3 for the 558 train to Long Branch, please go up and over to track 8, the 558 train to long branch will be boarding on track 8" then you hear a very loud groan and choice words as everyone runs up and over, and usually the crew is the last to get there because the crowds block their path!

Even if you plan everything perfectly you also could have a mechanical malfunction on an already loaded train and then the train cant get moving to leave the terminal, which is even worse because then you have to unload the train then go up and over to the new one. I had that happen once, dont know which engine crapped out but I do know it was the #4420 on one of its last runs that ended up getting us home on the substitute train.

yes beanbag you are correct, but my point is, is by calling the train early, and putting folks down on the platform without a train, and then things change, its much more of a pain and much more aggravating for employees but more so the passengers to go up and over to another track. it would often times be easier to keep the folks up in the concourse until the train is ready to go or at least pulling onto that track, THEN call the train. Even more so in the summer when its hot down on the platforms.

Jtgshu wrote:yes beanbag you are correct, but my point is, is by calling the train early, and putting folks down on the platform without a train, and then things change, its much more of a pain and much more aggravating for employees but more so the passengers to go up and over to another track. it would often times be easier to keep the folks up in the concourse until the train is ready to go or at least pulling onto that track, THEN call the train. Even more so in the summer when its hot down on the platforms.

I understand the rapid pace of PS, but i think its more psychologically people dont think they can make it to the train in 10mins, or even 5.

Jtgshu wrote:yes beanbag you are correct, but my point is, is by calling the train early, and putting folks down on the platform without a train, and then things change, its much more of a pain and much more aggravating for employees but more so the passengers to go up and over to another track. it would often times be easier to keep the folks up in the concourse until the train is ready to go or at least pulling onto that track, THEN call the train. Even more so in the summer when its hot down on the platforms.

Oh no I understand your point completely JT, I didnt mean that in an argumentative fashion, I was just merely adding to your point. Either situation.. yours or mine.. is painfully annoying, and I too am in agreement that people should be kept in the concourse until theyre sure what track the train will be on and that the crew is sure the locomotive isnt going to throw a fit.