FY 2014 Operating Budget etc etc etc etc...

Handing over your smartphone to a conductor? Like hell I'd do that!

This all sounds very confusing with lots of loopholes and passengers playing taps while rolling through turnstiles. How much is this project costing taxpayers again?

alewifebp wrote:This is all sounds so confusing, and quite unnecessary. If it is as confusing to us that have been following the progression of NPT for a while, and understand the entire rail network as a whole, how is this going to be comprehended by the occasional rider? Or even the regular rider?

Bob made a good point: if you guys who are pretty familiar with the SEPTA system don't know how this works, how in the world is SEPTA going to explain it to the general public?

And when we say tap out at a non CC station, what does that entail?

After you get off the train (or before you get on) you go over to a reader mounted on a post somewhere on the platform (assume there will be multiple readers) and tap your card on the device.

If they don't have machinery to tap out at, will you have to tap out with the conductor? Sounds like dwell times will be increased greatly if this is the case.

The only on-board part (this is a recent change) is for riders going to and from Trenton or West Trenton.

Who in SEPTA management actually thinks that this system makes any sense?

The people who are fixated on the revenue lost when 30 Villanova students get on a train St. Patrick's Day and don't have all their fares collected by the time the train gets to the city.

Fixating on eliminating fare evasion as they seem to be is going to end up eliminating riders, including myself (and that is saying something).

25Hz wrote:Fixating on eliminating fare evasion as they seem to be is going to end up eliminating riders, including myself (and that is saying something).

Absolutely! Whether it's the harassment I've seen some conductors lay on a new rider who got on the wrong train to the loony idea of turnstiles and the associated "Tap on, Tap off, the Tapper" policy, SEPTA's suits seem fixated on getting every penny up front even if it permanently costs them customers.

And as for the confusion level, just how disconnected are these guys? I remember as far back as the '95 fare study the existing fare system's complexities and contradictions were being cited as one of the most serious impediments to attracting new riders, yet they're now mono-maniacally intent on imposing something even more contorted. Back in my teaching days I somehow managed to get across the arcana of multivariate calculus and complex variables to bunches of semi-willing undergrads, but I don't think I could coherently explain the NPT's crazy-quilt to a fellow prof let alone your average rider.

My fear is that the new system is so far along that it's not fixable before next year, and it will have to fail in use before anyone at 1234 wakes up.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:The people who are fixated on the revenue lost when 30 Villanova students get on a train St. Patrick's Day and don't have all their fares collected by the time the train gets to the city.

I've been on such a train that had that happen. Wouldn't 2-3 modern TVM's at Villanova solve the problem? I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but why is SEPTA trying to reinvent the wheel when other solutions exist and have worked well? NJT, MNR, and LIRR work with such a system and server vastly more riders than SEPTA does.

And am I understanding this correctly that they will not install TVM's at outlying stations? That you will need to purchase these stored value cards at other merchants or in CC? Customers will LOVE that.

SEPTA isn't known for great signage, so it will be amusing to see what they provide in the forms of instructions at outlying stations explaining all of this.

alewifebp wrote:I've been on such a train that had that happen. Wouldn't 2-3 modern TVM's at Villanova solve the problem? I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but why is SEPTA trying to reinvent the wheel when other solutions exist and have worked well?

Because "our vandals are special"

NJT, MNR, and LIRR work with such a system and server vastly more riders than SEPTA does.

Even in some of the crummiest parts of Camden...

CComMack wrote:The hell of it that there's no way to even try to comply. Say you tap on and board at Ardmore. You never tap off. How does the system know whether to charge you $3.50 (Intermediate fare to Paoli), or $8.75 (Via Center City fare to Lansdale)? It can't.. Intermediate ridership is 5% of all RRD traffic, FWIW.

I can't wait until the failures stop being hypotheticals, and start being plastered across the front page of the Daily News

I'm sure it will work the same way paper tickets work on the turnpike.

You don't *have* to give them the ticket you used to get on, you can blast through the EZ Pass exit. They'll just charge you the max (by mail in the Turnpike's case).

alewifebp wrote:And am I understanding this correctly that they will not install TVM's at outlying stations? That you will need to purchase these stored value cards at other merchants or in CC? Customers will LOVE that.

Exactly. When the NPT was first being fleshed out, I wondered aloud whether the cards would become something like e-tokens: riders who had access to them would pay less while passengers without credit cards and nearby sales outlets would be forced to pay higher cash fares.

Admittedly I don't know what percentage of SEPTA's ridership would fall into that category, but my guess is that many who do would be less well off and can least afford the extra costs. Once again, the "poor tax" rears its ugly head.

JeffK wrote:When the NPT was first being fleshed out, I wondered aloud whether the cards would become something like e-tokens: riders who had access to them would pay less while passengers without credit cards and nearby sales outlets would be forced to pay higher cash fares.

Admittedly I don't know what percentage of SEPTA's ridership would fall into that category, but my guess is that many who do would be less well off and can least afford the extra costs.

I don't see how, at least in this respect, NPT is anything but an improvement. Every place where customers could get discounted fare instruments up until now will still be there, and many more outlets will be added in the city and suburbs. Consider that a lot of subway stations lack token machines today: they'll all be selling cards when NPT is in place.

You know, I re-read the thread and saw talk about how the behind-the-scenes infrastructure is being installed, and then talking about "tagging out" at outlying stations.

Well, I want to take this opportunity to call SHENANIGANS on this whole tagging thing. How much more or less would it cost to install ticket machines at stations instead of reinventing the wheel and installing these multiple "tagging posts?" Wouldn't the infrastructure be more involved for this "tagging" BS?

I am liking this less and less the more I read.

Florida Tri Rail, at least at their Ft Lauderdale station, has both taggers and ticket vending machines. I bought only a single ride ticket, and I don't remember if, but imagine the vending machines do, sell all types of tickets.

I've seen many NJT Riverline machines out of service, but never that were obviously vandalized. How much do transit agencies attribute machine problems to vandalism? From prior posts I get the impression fear of vandalism's one of SEPTA's excuses for not having vending machines. Although if there are enough alternate places to buy tickets that might be better than having sales at the station, for example if the corner drugstore sells tickets. What's no fun is when the corner drugstore has limited hours, or doesn't sell the type of ticket you need, not that ticket agents necessarily have better hours, or better variety of tickets.

R3 Passenger wrote:How much more or less would it cost to install ticket machines at stations instead of reinventing the wheel and installing these multiple "tagging posts?"

DVARP proposed a TVM-based alternative that by our estimate would be similar in cost to the turnstiles in Center City. It was rejected by SEPTA on grounds of potential vandalism, the cost of sending people out to service the machines (note SEPTA already sends people out to stations daily to service the parking meters), and out of SEPTA's uncompromising insistence on the turnstiles.

I think everyone can agree that the unit cost of a tag reader would be less than the cost of a TVM though. There wouldn't be a printer or input buttons.

Wouldn't the infrastructure be more involved for this "tagging" BS?

Both tag readers and TVMs can be done without any additional physical infrastructure at the station. They can be run on solar power like the parking kiosks seen in city and suburbs, and use wireless communications on existing cell or wi-fi networks.

I just dont understand. TVMS Would be much easier for passengers to just buy tickets because we all know the outlying stations don't have ticket offices. SEPTA better think what's best for passengers but I doubt it.

Now for the faregates does anyone have a idea of what they will look like ? At 19th st trolley stop there is a ramp built already with poles and etc...I assume there will be a faregate ?

It was rejected by SEPTA on grounds of potential vandalism, the cost of sending people out to service the machines (note SEPTA already sends people out to stations daily to service the parking meters), and out of SEPTA's uncompromising insistence on the turnstiles.

That's a real knee-slapper there! I ride PATCO daily to work, and I routinely see workers performing service on the turnstiles -- at least a couple times a week.

SEPTA is kidding themselves. I don't know why they are insisting on turnstiles -- it seems like logically, it would be the last option you'd choose, not the first.

Didn't Septas vandals go above and beyond on the Fox Chase line? I believe they burned Cheltenham to the ground (before it was rebuilt), and Olney I think after it was rebuilt was also burned.

TVMs bring their own problems, it didn't work, I bought the wrong ticket (intentionally or otherwise), it didn't take my money, the line was too long and I was going to miss my train, no system will ever work 100% in a cost cutting economy, this type of system seems similar to what they do in France, you have to validate your ticket before you ride, in the UK they have TVMs and another machine that comes on when it detects the TVM is out of order (you put money you have available in up to as close to the ticket price if you know it, then on the train you pay for the regular ticket and any money that is owed to the regular price, if you don't get it then they fine you, this is open to abuse but is generally a good deterrent for fare evaders)

It seems Septa had taken various ideas and systems and is trying to mash it's own together, each system is different and we will have to wait and see and adjust or change accordingly, regardless it's coming whether we like it or not.