FY 2014 Operating Budget etc etc etc etc...

That's the point DVARP has been making the past two years.

Everywhere else in North America where a "tag off" system has been implemented, it is optional and commuters have the choice of using a pass just like we have now. Non-daily riders who want the convenience and discounts of a smart card tag on, and daily commuters can walk past the tag readers and right to the train.

Sounds like exactly what they should be doing. Thank you to DVARP for putting that out there -- hopefully SEPTA will have a change of heart.

But I won't be holding my breath.

dcipjr wrote:Sounds like exactly what they should be doing. Thank you to DVARP for putting that out there -- hopefully SEPTA will have a change of heart.

But I won't be holding my breath.

Well the contract is signed and work is underway (most of it behind the scenes at this time). So we're stuck with the turnstiles. At this point, all we can do is say "we told you so" when the customer complaints start rolling in and people figure out how to avoid paying.

The detail that jumped out at me: North Philadelphia and North Broad are now in Zone 1. For the legitimately-minded, it just got a lot cheaper to get to Trenton. (I'm on the Broad Street Line anyway, why not make the change at North Philadelphia and save a minimum of $4.50 each way?) For the fare-evasion-minded, I remind them that Intermediate and through-Center City travel has no enforcement mechanism.

I foresee a measurable increase in Broad Street Line ridership between Lehigh Ave and Center City.

The 123/124/125/NHSL flat fares take effect on 7/1 and are not waiting for NPT implementation.

Also note that Trenton to Thorndale now costs the same as Darby to Allegheny.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

Tritransit Area wrote:I also highly agree with you about the local service on the 123/124/125 before they get on the highway. It would be ridiculous to charge these local riders full premium fares, especially when these routes (particularly the 124/125) are the only lines that serve certain stops. It's not all about mall workers from Philadelphia to King of Prussia, here!

What it looks like is that SEPTA rejected the idea of having those local riders (e.g. Gulph Mills-King of Prussia) tag off if they get off before the express zone, in which case the excess fare would be rebated to their account.

We've got a year or so to work on them to fix the details so the implementation of NPT won't be so ham-handed.

But the premium fares would take effect this COMING July, not in 2014.

MichaelBug wrote:But the premium fares would take effect this COMING July, not in 2014.

... which simply adds to the perception - and reality - that no matter what adjustments SEPTA makes to its fare structure, parts of it are wildly inequitable and counterproductive. Anyone who uses the local portions of those routes, or who is among the significant number of city-bound commuters whose P&W trip is within the current zone 1 region, will be hit with a double increase. Even with gas at $3.75 a gallon a fare hike of that magnitude will probably send people to their cars.

I don't know which is a more disturbing thought: that SEPTA's bean-counters don't realize the consequences of what they've proposed . . . or that they do.

JeffK wrote:I don't know which is a more disturbing thought: that SEPTA's bean-counters don't realize the consequences of what they've proposed . . . or that they do.

That NHSL fare baffles me too. I'll be talking a lot with the bean-counters the next coupla months (coulda had dinner with the bean-counter-in-chief Friday night, but he and his wife were getting theirs to go), and will get answers to these questions.

JeffK wrote:I don't know which is a more disturbing thought: that SEPTA's bean-counters don't realize the consequences of what they've proposed . . . or that they do.

I'm pretty sure they realized the consequences for the 123 and NHSL.

But the problem of 124/125 local ridership west of Gulph Mills, I don't think so.

Amtrak7 wrote:I'm pretty sure they realized the consequences for the 123 and NHSL.

And that's exactly what disturbs me about their planning process* What's going to happen when a 123 bus stops to pick up an inbound rider along West Chester Pike? Or are they going to return to the route's original operation as express-only which would at least partially align with the idea of an unconditional premium fare? As for the NHSL, a high percentage of its ridership boards and exits in what's currently the first zone. Those people will now be paying the same amount as if they're riding all the way to Norristown**

I have the feeling that if SEPTA were in the grocery business they'd charge the same amount for one apple and a whole sack

(*) OK, it'd old news but is this yet another instance of the attytood expressed by a suit at one fare hearing that "you suburbanites are wealthy enough to pay extra"?
(**) or Bridgeport, as the case may be ...

Everyone: I read thru some of the proposed fare changes and some are going to
'be quite controversial - changing RRD fare zones and making long routes like the
124-125 buses flat fare routes are good examples...

I noticed that transfers are again going to be eliminated for cash fare riders at some
point and I wonder if there will be any lawsuits from the City of Philadelphia or the
City's vocal poor-persons groups to stop any changes or perhaps NPT all together from
taking effect to keep the current fare types intact...

Next month's hearings will be quite interesting-and well-attended perhaps...
I hope to attend at least one during the hearing period...

MACTRAXX

MACTRAXX wrote:I noticed that transfers are again going to be eliminated for cash fare riders at some point and I wonder if there will be any lawsuits from the City of Philadelphia or the City's vocal poor-persons groups to stop any changes or perhaps NPT all together from taking effect to keep the current fare types intact...

The City? Very unlikely. They have been deferential to management since Nutter and Casey took their respective offices, not wanting to have any disagreements damage their improved relations. As a result, it was left to DVARP to fight against the elimination of zone 1, which would have disproportionately hurt city riders.

Some advocacy group or another? Possibly. They can file a lawsuit, maybe even get an injunction such as happened many years ago. But it will be struck down in Commonwealth Court again, barring some significant mis-step by SEPTA in preparing and approving the tariffs.

The issue of paper transfers is not a big deal. Both DVARP and (AFAIK) the City have given their approval so long as (in our case) discounted(*) transfers are available to users who have a suitable open payments card and the SEPTA card is made widely available (the number I heard last week was 5,000 outlets throughout the region).

*--we still would prefer free transfers within central Philadelphia: the proposed tariffs are a bit of progress over what SEPTA was talking about six months ago though.

A question about turnstiles in the Regional Rail Division - Are they going to be at the outlying stations, too? If so, how will people at stations like Trevose or Bethayres, where the ONLY way to cross the tracks without going quite some distance out of the way, is to cross theb tracks on foot get from one side to the other before being ticketed?

rslitman wrote:A question about turnstiles in the Regional Rail Division - Are they going to be at the outlying stations, too? If so, how will people at stations like Trevose or Bethayres, where the ONLY way to cross the tracks without going quite some distance out of the way, is to cross theb tracks on foot get from one side to the other before being ticketed?

Only the Center City stations will have turnstiles. You will need to 'tap' to get in, and 'tap' to get out.

Clearfield wrote:

rslitman wrote:A question about turnstiles in the Regional Rail Division - Are they going to be at the outlying stations, too? If so, how will people at stations like Trevose or Bethayres, where the ONLY way to cross the tracks without going quite some distance out of the way, is to cross theb tracks on foot get from one side to the other before being ticketed?

Only the Center City stations will have turnstiles. You will need to 'tap' to get in, and 'tap' to get out.

Thanks for the answer. Now regarding the "tapping" - Will this be done everywhere on the Regional Rail Division or just in Center City? If everywhere, will the object of the tapping be attached to the train or will it be on some type of post at the boarding area at the station?

rslitman wrote:Thanks for the answer. Now regarding the "tapping" - Will this be done everywhere on the Regional Rail Division or just in Center City?

Neither. At all stations except the outer zone (current zone 5 and 6 plus half of zone 4).

If everywhere, will the object of the tapping be attached to the train or will it be on some type of post at the boarding area at the station?

At the outlying stations, it will be on some type of post at the boarding and detraining areas at the station.