FY 2014 Operating Budget etc etc etc etc...

loufah wrote:After the last fare increase, paper tickets bought prior to July 1 were only good until Aug 31. Is that the case this time? I have a bunch of Independence passes and am wondering if they'll all become worthless in 3 months.

Wait, NPT isn't going to come into place until well into the new year. I was also wondering about paper tickets, particularly with the new "intermediate tickets". I usually buy my 2-zone Intermediate tickets in bulk for my commute. I wonder if they will be accepted with the new intermediate tickets (which will probably be short lived anyway once NPT is activated on the RR).

Tritransit Area wrote:

loufah wrote:After the last fare increase, paper tickets bought prior to July 1 were only good until Aug 31. Is that the case this time? I have a bunch of Independence passes and am wondering if they'll all become worthless in 3 months.

Wait, NPT isn't going to come into place until well into the new year.

Understood. I was asking about the fare increase that goes into effect in 32 days.

Another question about the new upcoming fares: how do transfers (for those of us using tokens + transfers) work when the new higher-base-fare routes like 123 and NHSL are the second leg of the commute?

loufah wrote:

Tritransit Area wrote:

loufah wrote:After the last fare increase, paper tickets bought prior to July 1 were only good until Aug 31. Is that the case this time? I have a bunch of Independence passes and am wondering if they'll all become worthless in 3 months.

Wait, NPT isn't going to come into place until well into the new year.

Understood. I was asking about the fare increase that goes into effect in 32 days.

Another question about the new upcoming fares: how do transfers (for those of us using tokens + transfers) work when the new higher-base-fare routes like 123 and NHSL are the second leg of the commute?

Very good question. From what I understand, transfers will still be accepted as "base fare", but you will have to pay extra (similar to how it works today if you have to pay zone fare). For the NHSL, all passengers will have to pay an extra 50 cents. For the 123, passengers will pay an extra *gulp* $1.50 with their transfer.

sammy2009 wrote:I wonder what happens when you don't use all of your 56 or 240 rides ?

The cap applies to Trans/Trailpass users so you're really paying for a specific number of days of travel rather than a specific number of rides. The cap adds a second condition that a pass will also expire if the maximum number of rides is reached before the end of the purchased time period. Most riders never come anywhere near the caps before month-end so they won't see any difference.

The ride cap is SEPTA's ham-handed attempt to limit fare leakage due to pass-sharing. The problem was that the original limits were low enough to snare people who legitimately made 200 boardings per month (more than one job, multiple transfers etc.). Counting linked trips rather than single boardings would have been more equitable, but raising the caps is at least a halfway fix.

I know the SmartCards have already been ordered, a good 1,000,000 Million of them.

Wow! A trillion cards? (sorry, couldn't resist )

Tritransit Area wrote: For the 123, passengers will pay an extra *gulp* $1.50 with their transfer.

It won't be be a death blow for the 123 but it will definitely crimp usage. That ridiculous surcharge effectively eliminates the 123 as a third connector between the Malls and Gulph Mills, and will really sock anyone who needs to transfer at Upper Darby as opposed to taking the 124/125 as an alternative. The only positive is that the surcharge will probably cause a de facto restoration of express service along West Chester Pike because local users will wait for the 104.

I still can't figure out why or how anyone at 1234 decided these surcharges would be a good idea.

JeffK wrote:

sammy2009 wrote:I wonder what happens when you don't use all of your 56 or 240 rides ?

The cap applies to Trans/Trailpass users so you're really paying for a specific number of days of travel rather than a specific number of rides. The cap adds a second condition that a pass will also expire if the maximum number of rides is reached before the end of the purchased time period. Most riders never come anywhere near the caps before month-end so they won't see any difference.

The ride cap is SEPTA's ham-handed attempt to limit fare leakage due to pass-sharing. The problem was that the original limits were low enough to snare people who legitimately made 200 boardings per month (more than one job, multiple transfers etc.). Counting linked trips rather than single boardings would have been more equitable, but raising the caps is at least a halfway fix.

I know the SmartCards have already been ordered, a good 1,000,000 Million of them.

Wow! A trillion cards? (sorry, couldn't resist )

Tritransit Area wrote: For the 123, passengers will pay an extra *gulp* $1.50 with their transfer.

It won't be be a death blow for the 123 but it will definitely crimp usage. That ridiculous surcharge effectively eliminates the 123 as a third connector between the Malls and Gulph Mills, and will really sock anyone who needs to transfer at Upper Darby as opposed to taking the 124/125 as an alternative. The only positive is that the surcharge will probably cause a de facto restoration of express service along West Chester Pike because local users will wait for the 104.

I still can't figure out why or how anyone at 1234 decided these surcharges would be a good idea.

The pass expiring before the cap cut-off is a bit confusing. They just should have had it re-chargeable where it wouldnt be so confusing. The raise in the caps was a halfway fix. I did my calculations and my rides per week doesnt even come close to 50. I take the 34 Trolley, and the R1 to work plus any other time im out...i wont use up all my rides.

And yes 1,000,000 cards have been ordered . It was in a online article a couple of months ago. I wonder what its going to look like. I dont want anything ugly, and cheap looking. I might have to take a trip to Fox Chase station , i know they are doing some kind of construction at the stop for the NPT im curious.

Has anyone seen any new turnstiles, or ticket machines yet . I read somewhere that FTC, and 69th St are like 50% complete and Fern Rock is next

sammy2009 wrote:Has anyone seen any new turnstiles, or ticket machines yet . I read somewhere that FTC, and 69th St are like 50% complete and Fern Rock is next

We've seen turnstiles and ADA gates in the SEPTA NPT workshop. No ticket machines yet though.
I'll try and get a photo into the next DVARP newsletter. <plug>www.dvarp.org/member</plug>

I saw a NPT box/display thingie attached to the current in-use farebox when I rode the NHSL on Wednesday. It looks like a fatter iPad-type device where I assume all that's needed for a fare transaction is either a valid in-use NPT stored-value farecard or appropriate credit or debit card. Right now, all that I saw on display was the words "Coming Soon" in the usual SEPTA livery-type coloration, but I guess that's a start...

That's it. A few readers are out for field testing. They'll all be about iPad size with a red frame.

JeffK wrote:I still can't figure out why or how anyone at 1234 decided these surcharges would be a good idea.

Maybe an experiment to see whether demand-based rates work? I ride the 123 occasionally, off-peak, and the outbound is always full, and sometimes SRO, by the time it gets to Manoa, and the inbound is essentially full when it leaves the mall thanks to shopping bags. There is clearly demand for this service by shoppers. In New York, the Woodbury Common buses cost around $20 for a 45- to 55-minute trip. Maybe SEPTA thought that charging shoppers extra while not raising prices for employees (who presumably hold passes) was a way to raise revenue.

Everyone: I checked out some of what SEPTA had posted in the way of new fares - they have the very same information posted showing the PROPOSED fares for July 2013
and NO new information on what exactly the new fares would be and how tickets bought prior to the increase would be accepted...

I noticed examples of the changes on the July 2013 Monthly Passes which are posted and sold at: http://www.shop.septa.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - see "Discount Fares - Monthly Passes"...
The July 2013 passes will be offered for sale until Friday June 14th at 4pm EDT...Later that day the August 2013 passes will be posted for sale...

All passes no longer have the special block for the gender stickers - see Note: "Gender sticker selection is no longer required on Monthly Passes"...
I was curious about this because having that block specifically mentioning "M/F Not Valid" would cause problems if it was to be on the July passes...
The June passes look to be the very final month of the use of these stickers...

The July 2013 Zone passes have Dunkin Donuts drink advertisements and the Cross County Pass has a picture of a new SEPTA RRD high-level platform station...

The Cross County Passes are going to be the only one available for intermediate use as of July 2013...The Intermediate 2-zone Monthly is discontinued
after June 2013 and it looks like SEPTA will charge just one price for all intermediate RRD travel as previously noted: $3.50 pre-paid and $4 on train...
Cross County Weekly Passes will be an interesting - and welcome - change with the new fares if they are offered...

The calendar works perfectly for SEPTA: June 30th is a Sunday and July 1st is a Monday meaning there will be no "overlap" on Weekly passes going into
the new month making this a perfect point for changes like the new fares and gender sticker elimination to take place...

It will be interesting to see how SEPTA decides how they will gradually phase out token sales and use...They will have to keep selling and accepting tokens
until the NPT System is established and it will have to be over a period of time remembering how NYC Transit eliminated their tokens back in 2003...
They first stopped sales and the second step was ending their use on the Subways and the third step was ending their use on buses...
The most interesting part was the last transit service to use NYC Transit tokens: The Roosevelt Island Tram ended token use on March 31,2004...

I feel that SEPTA has to let riders know as soon as possible exactly what the changes will be with the new fares and how long tickets bought in June
before the fare increase will be accepted for...This will affect all SEPTA riders in some way as most of us know...

MACTRAXX

sammy2009 wrote:The pass expiring before the cap cut-off is a bit confusing. They just should have had it re-chargeable where it wouldn't be so confusing. ... I did my calculations and my rides per week doesn't even come close to 50.

Are you possibly mixing Trans- and Trailpasses with the new smart cards? They're different. Smart cards WILL be rechargeable while Trans/Trail passes are sold for a specific time period. Those passes have never been sold for a specific number of rides, and won't be, so the idea of recharging them for more use is n/a. The only change is that as of July passes are no longer "open ended"; i.e. you can no longer make as many trips as you want within their validity period.

The raise in the caps was a halfway fix

Maybe not even that much, haha!

And yes 1,000,000 cards have been ordered.

Yes, a million. I was joking about "1,000,000 million" which is a trillion (10**12)

loufah wrote:Maybe an experiment to see whether demand-based rates work? I ride the 123 occasionally, off-peak, and the outbound is always full, and sometimes SRO, by the time it gets to Manoa, and the inbound is essentially full when it leaves the mall thanks to shopping bags. There is clearly demand for this service by shoppers. . . .

Except that (a) the $1.50 surcharge will apply all the time so it's not truly demand-based, (b) it will apply to pass-holders as well unless they have a more-expensive Zone 3, and (c) 123 ridership is currently broader than just shoppers and mall employees. It includes people transferring to the P&W at Gulph Mills and commuters boarding/exiting between Upper Darby and I-476. They'll all be snared in the same net.

The surcharge will almost certainly turn the 123 into a limited-service route because people who're now using it locally will shift to alternative buses - the 124 and 125 between the malls and Gulph Mills* and the 104 along West Chester Pike. Given that the 123 was initially intended as a stopgap route until the NHSL extension is completed**, making it a point-to-point express once again may not be a completely negative outcome.

Maybe SEPTA thought that charging shoppers extra while not raising prices for employees (who presumably hold passes) was a way to raise revenue.

Except SEPTA runs services to many malls. Why single out K of P but not Springfield, Oxford Valley, etc? <cynicism>Could it be the same attytood that led one SEPTA suit to say (at a public hearing!) that people in King of Prussia are all wealthy so they can afford to pay more?</cynicism>

(*) ... now that SEPTA's dropped that surcharge
(**) Not holding breath, so not turning blue

MACTRAXX wrote:It will be interesting to see how SEPTA decides how they will gradually phase out token sales and use...They will have to keep selling and accepting tokens
until the NPT System is established and it will have to be over a period of time remembering how NYC Transit eliminated their tokens back in 2003...
They first stopped sales and the second step was ending their use on the Subways and the third step was ending their use on buses...
The most interesting part was the last transit service to use NYC Transit tokens: The Roosevelt Island Tram ended token use on March 31,2004...

Initially, all "High Speed" lines will have both the new turnstiles and a few of the old that still accept tokens to ease the transition period.
I'm actually not sure if they can reprogram the bus fareboxes to stop accepting tokens.

askclifford wrote:I'm actually not sure if they can reprogram the bus fareboxes to stop accepting tokens.

Depending on how the coin detectors work, it might be very simple. Coins have distinct electromagnetic "signatures", which is how a detector can identify and register each denomination correctly, as well as rejecting slugs and foreign coins. Simply disabling tokens' signatures should be pretty straightforward.

Unless of course the detectors have any similarity to those old TVMs that could only recognize bills printed before 1990....

MACTRAXX wrote:It will be interesting to see how SEPTA decides how they will gradually phase out token sales and use...They will have to keep selling and accepting tokens until the NPT System is established and it will have to be over a period of time remembering how NYC Transit eliminated their tokens back in 2003.

It will probably be over a period of about three to six months. By the time the card is made available to the general public, at least one fareline in each subway station will be changed over. You'll be able to use the magnetically-encoded passes at those turnstiles during the transition period. I don't recall seeing a coin slot on the modernized turnstile in the lab.

Everyone: I checked notes I have to see what NYC Transit did to eliminate token sales back in 2003...

That year the NYC Transit fare rose from $1.50 to $2 which has turned out to be the largest single fare
increase in their history...

March 30th - Token sales were limited to 2 per person per transaction...
April 13th - Token sales end
May 4th - The last day they were accepted for use at Subway stations...
May 5th - NYCT Fare rises from $1.50 to $2...

Until December 30th tokens were accepted on all NYC Buses along with a 50 cent coin drop...

As I previously mentioned the Roosevelt Island Tram used tokens until March 31,2004 at which point
I believe the tram fare increased to match the NYCT fare...

I think SEPTA should come up with a plan as Matt mentions in which tokens are accepted for a period
of time for a changeover or perhaps even have some new fare machines that accept tokens along with cash
to use their designated "value" to fill a new NPT smart card during the same period - I realize that SEPTA treats
tokens as a "No refund-All sales final" item but they should be flexible on token use and redemption during the
NPT introduction period...

Also: With the coming fare increase some riders will no doubt seek to "stock up" on tokens...I do not remember
token sales being restricted like the 2 token/transaction limit NYC Transit initiated at the end of token use but
I do remember tokens being in spotty shortages due to demand before fare increases...SEPTA riders knew that
the current "stripe" tokens - which I believe date from 1989-1990 - will not be changed like NYC Transit would
threaten to do especially in the days before the Metrocard was introduced in the mid 1990s...

Thoughts from MACTRAXX