Official "Maple Leaf" Thread

Tadman wrote:If you think the Water Level is busy east of NFL, try west of Cleveland. I used to have an office on the tracks just outside of Chicago and it's a busy place. I seem to recall seeing a traffic density map that shows about double the train volume west of Cleveland, especially when you factor in CP run-thru Toledo-Chicago.

as far as I can tell there's room for an extra track from toledo to chicago

25Hz wrote:Ah, ok.

I not so secretly desire an Amtrak/federal/state ownership of all main Amtrak routes east of the Mississippi. Since the water level route/west shore line are highly prized freight routes, I don't see it happening anytime soon if ever. I couldn't believe how many trains I saw on my trip to NFS, over 25 plus 3 on the west shore line.

Interesting, and I not so secretly want to be married to Lolo Jones and have 800 Million dollars but I digress..

Back on topic, I find your comment about owning the track east of the Mississippi interesting. What lead you to that? What not the entire country? Are you one of those that believes if it doesn't run under wire, It doesn't exist?

mtuandrew wrote:

25Hz wrote:Horray Amtrak gets to own its own tracks outside the NEC/keystone!

Michigan and Indiana say hello

Illinois as well. Chicago Union Station and its track (South Branch Bridge/21 Street on the south to Canal Street on the north) are Amtrak owned.

AMTK1007 wrote:

25Hz wrote:Ah, ok.

I not so secretly desire an Amtrak/federal/state ownership of all main Amtrak routes east of the Mississippi. Since the water level route/west shore line are highly prized freight routes, I don't see it happening anytime soon if ever. I couldn't believe how many trains I saw on my trip to NFS, over 25 plus 3 on the west shore line.

Interesting, and I not so secretly want to be married to Lolo Jones and have 800 Million dollars but I digress..

Back on topic, I find your comment about owning the track east of the Mississippi interesting. What lead you to that? What not the entire country? Are you one of those that believes if it doesn't run under wire, It doesn't exist?

Because the routes west are main line trans-continental freight routes. East has much more to gain because of population density. For the west coast I think the coastal states could do the same.

Is CN getting advice from Stanley "el destructo" Crane?

Having one link, the ancient International Bridge at Fort Erie, is incredibly stupid and short sighted. Why not mothball it like BN did with Stampede Pass. i know its about the almighty buck, but they might miss that lack of capacity some day down the road.

Niagara area is my all time favorite rail area. Its very depressing seeing stuff disappear, or on the hit list.

I have a feeling greedy real estate developers have a role in all this as well. they are running all industry out. its funny that they want to extend GO service to Niagara. The former Michigan Central line couldve let folks off right in the heart of things. But thats long gone as well.

I've been poking around amtrak.com trying to figure out if i can swing a solo vacation to canada. To my surprise there continue to be sold out trains and sold out business class for many, many days, mostly in a row.

My question: is it feasible to add a second train at this point in time? What would be needed?

Right now you have one train per direction per day. They leave rather early in the morning, and have a pretty long duration end to end and get in rather late in the evening.

Is it reasonable to ask for a train that leaves at 6-8 pm and gets in at 6-8 am?

This train seems to be pretty popular. When i rode it was about 75% full after albany and packed between nyp and albany. About 45-50 percent of train capacity carried people over the border into canada.

It is my hope that a second train can be added, so that more revenue can be gained that would possibly otherwise be lost.

I think with decreased CBP processing times and tighter crew connections and other improvements such as higher average travel speed between stations you could really decrease total trip time to the point that driving would become much less desirable. Driving requires a minimum of one stop for fuel and probably more for human reasons, costs with fuel and snacks and tolls about 130 bucks by my estimations. Full price (after NFS) is 103-106. Add to that the convenient late night HSR and TTC operations you could get close enough to walk via bus or trolly. But... if you left from say newark, or somewhere on the shore line and transfered at NYP to the 63 to NFS it's 68 bucks (plus local transit?), and onboard food if you choose to not brown bag it. I'd estimate about 85 dollars total. I spent 10 dollars on food on board, mainly on hot cocoa & soda to stay awake. I could have spent less.

Then there's the companion problem. For one person the trip is cheaper than driving, but add a companion and all the sudden you are looking at 140 bucks. Still not too bad compared to driving, but if the goal is to save money, companion fares could attract those parties. You could offer 40% off for adult companion and 55% off for minor (under 18). This would bring the costs to just below driving. You could offer family packages for 2-3 adults and 4 minor and such where the adults pay fullprice but the minors only pay 25%. You could offer this on a first come first served basis for a set number of group combinations, perhaps a certain advance booking limitation as well.

What do you all think? Time for maple leaf to become 2 daily? And what of the pricing ideas?

Overnight service was tried for a couple of years on weekends in the mid '90s.

The Niagara Rainbow, Schedule here:

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?grou ... &item=0034

For a new train now, Amtrak would probably have to partner with a Canadian operator for the Niagara Falls to Toronto portion as they do now with VIA on the Maple Leaf. But VIA is pulling out of Niagara (except for the Maple Leaf) and there will probably be additional GO Trains besides the current summer weekend services they are now operating.

The idea is interesting. If nothing else, extend one more Empire Service train over the border (or have two cars become through cars) in cooperation with Via or Go.

Also, I'd hesitate to use the 80s or 90s as a comparison to service today or as a barometer for the success of possible new service. That was the day of very cheap gas, rather plentiful jobs, and the prevailing attitude that "Trains are for old folks and buffs". Today, most corridor trains are 4-6 cars as opposed to the mid-90s when 2-3 cars were the norm. A lot of new riders are on the system these days.

I've seen enough folks mention it that yeah, a second Maple Leaf run might be feasible.

But, how about getting VERY creative. Run through to Canada but then hook left to Detroit and points west.

(basically connect Wolverine and Empire Service).

Yes, you have a very real issue of customs (basically twice as much as if you simply went to Toronto) but you'd connect existing Amtrak services and might be able to better using existing equipment.

Keep in mind, Amtrak doesn't have a whole lot of spare equipment laying around.

In general, I think the "Buffalo" end of the Empire Service needs more expansion. How about taking the earliest arrival and extending to Toledo or points further west? (a "day" train to Chicago anyone?)

In most places it's all about incremental expansions to the network.

Greg Moore wrote:I've seen enough folks mention it that yeah, a second Maple Leaf run might be feasible.

But, how about getting VERY creative. Run through to Canada but then hook left to Detroit and points west.

You would have to hook left now at Bayview (Hamilton/Aldershot) as the old Penn Central/Conrail line across southern Ontario is gone.

Amtrak’s Empire State Express once ran between Buffalo and Detroit on the Penn Central via St. Thomas, Ontario (south of London) This was an Amtrak only train....No CN (or VIA) involvement.

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?grou ... &item=0035

Greg Moore wrote:I've seen enough folks mention it that yeah, a second Maple Leaf run might be feasible.

But, how about getting VERY creative. Run through to Canada but then hook left to Detroit and points west.

(basically connect Wolverine and Empire Service).

Wasn't this actually proposed a few years back as part of the "Mail & Express" initiative-- a new version of the Twilight Limited or The Wolverine?

They need the Montrealer back as an overnight train right to Montreal.

So, you want to add another trip to a route that you in your experience arrives TWO 40-50 percent filled? You want to add a train to a route that is beautiful and scenic, yet you want to travel under the cover of darkness? Additionally, I'd like you to define your "tighter" crew turns statement. What is your plan?

A big problem with the Maple Leaf (and Adirondack) is the local to Albany. If anything, you should add capacity to that portion to free up through seating. If your goal is Montreal, I'm inclined to agree with F3A: Bring back the Montrealer.

Otherwise, a Friday/Sunday late overnight departure during peak seasons might make the most sense....not that there is equipment for any of this. But, we can dream.

25Hz wrote:I've been poking around amtrak.com trying to figure out if i can swing a solo vacation to canada. To my surprise there continue to be sold out trains and sold out business class for many, many days, mostly in a row.

My question: is it feasible to add a second train at this point in time? What would be needed?

Right now you have one train per direction per day. They leave rather early in the morning, and have a pretty long duration end to end and get in rather late in the evening.

Is it reasonable to ask for a train that leaves at 6-8 pm and gets in at 6-8 am?

This train seems to be pretty popular. When i rode it was about 75% full after albany and packed between nyp and albany. About 45-50 percent of train capacity carried people over the border into canada.

Who will be providing the operating subsidy for the Maple Leaf after 2013? The ML distance to Toronto is 544 miles with 460 miles in NY. Will NY state be providing the operating subsidy as part of their Empire service trains or is there a provision to allow the ML to be subsidized by the national subsidy because it is a joint Amtrak - VIA train?

If NY State is providing the operating support, the state will have little political interest in supporting an overnight train running through upper state NY in the middle of the night that would also cost more to operate. There would also likely be a problem at the border asking or paying for enough Customs inspectors to be on duty late at night and in the early pre-dawn hours of the morning.

As I understand it, the ML is jointly operated by Amtrak and VIA. While Amtrak is in an expansion mode and on the upswing in ridership, VIA is in retrenchment mode with service cuts. The joint operation of the service adds a major layer of complexity to any discussions about adding a 2nd daily train.

The ML currently takes 12.5 hours from NYP to Toronto. That is a long trip time to try to add in a second daily train that leaves 3-4 hours later. Now if NY State can get more cooperation from CSX for the western Empire part of the route and in a few years, reduces the NYP to NFL trip times by several hours along with an additional service frequency for NYP-NFL, then adding a second daily ML would easier to do. There should also be more single level equipment available in 4-5 years, whether it is new coach cars or Amfleets & Horizons freed up from the Midwest and CA.

But I still have a question about how full is the ML most of the year from NFL to Toronto? Lot cheaper to add an additional coach car for the peak periods if that can handle the passenger load.

I would think the odds are better on adding a second daily Adirondack in a few years if the Customs inspections can all be done in Montreal, Quebec pays for track improvements on the Canadian side to enhance prospects for Adirondack and Vermonter service to/from Montreal, and the total trip time of the Adirondack is much improved. NYP to MTR is a shorter trip after all.

F3A wrote:They need the Montrealer back as an overnight train right to Montreal.

The odds of that happening in the foreseeable future are nil. The odds of the Vermonter being extended to Montreal in 2-3 years are quite good, but it would remain a day train.