Official "Maple Leaf" Thread

[jp1822]

Try booking from Albany to Toronto or Montreal. As has been posted, a large part of the problem on the Adirondack AND Maple Leaf is that they are the FIRST early morning trains out of NYP to Albany and carry a LOT of local traffic. Same can be said for the Friday evening and Sunday evening Ethan Allen Express to/from NYP and Albany.

It would be more interesting to see if the problem could be alleviated by putting a more "local train" from NYP to Albany on the schedule in between the departure times of the Maple Leaf and Adirondack (depart NYP at 7:30 a.m. for a 10 a.m. arrival at Albany). OR a train that left NYP for Albany at say 6:45 a.m. and got to Alabany in the 9 a.m. hour. This may be more appealing for the business travelers/locals - and those that even have monthly passes. I know a few people who have monthly passes and commute on the Empire Corridor between NYP and Albany intermediate points.

Amtrak has also added a coach from NYP to Albany to try to pick up this "local" traffic demand. In some cases, they need more than one coach, and in some cases, and in cases of the Adirondak this coach should really be dropped/picked up in Saratoga Spring as opposed to Albany (as this is often the key demand point for the Adirondack). And perhaps all this isn't enough.

Many trains still have the 1/2 business class seating and 1/2 cafe seating on the Empire Corridor trains even though trains operating exclusively between Albany and NYP do NOT offer food service. However, these trains are part of the "Empire Corridor" pool and could end up making a Albany-NYP southbound run and then turn same day to make an afternoon or mid-day run up to upstate NY. BUT for those trains that may just be captive to NYP to Albany, Amtrak should replace such cars with just coach cars and eliminate the business class option. This may at least provide more "options" for passengers when trains get sold out.

NY state should at least be focusing more on its sole state supported train - the Adirondack. That train needs improvement - cars to amenities etc.

[jstolberg]

Who will be providing the operating subsidy for the Maple Leaf after 2013? The ML distance to Toronto is 544 miles with 460 miles in NY. Will NY state be providing the operating subsidy as part of their Empire service trains or is there a provision to allow the ML to be subsidized by the national subsidy because it is a joint Amtrak - VIA train?

If NY State is providing the operating support, the state will have little political interest in supporting an overnight train running through upper state NY in the middle of the night that would also cost more to operate. There would also likely be a problem at the border asking or paying for enough Customs inspectors to be on duty late at night and in the early pre-dawn hours of the morning.

As I understand it, the ML is jointly operated by Amtrak and VIA. While Amtrak is in an expansion mode and on the upswing in ridership, VIA is in retrenchment mode with service cuts. The joint operation of the service adds a major layer of complexity to any discussions about adding a 2nd daily train.

The ML currently takes 12.5 hours from NYP to Toronto. That is a long trip time to try to add in a second daily train that leaves 3-4 hours later. Now if NY State can get more cooperation from CSX for the western Empire part of the route and in a few years, reduces the NYP to NFL trip times by several hours along with an additional service frequency for NYP-NFL, then adding a second daily ML would easier to do. There should also be more single level equipment available in 4-5 years, whether it is new coach cars or Amfleets & Horizons freed up from the Midwest and CA.

But I still have a question about how full is the ML most of the year from NFL to Toronto? Lot cheaper to add an additional coach car for the peak periods if that can handle the passenger load.

I would think the odds are better on adding a second daily Adirondack in a few years if the Customs inspections can all be done in Montreal, Quebec pays for track improvements on the Canadian side to enhance prospects for Adirondack and Vermonter service to/from Montreal, and the total trip time of the Adirondack is much improved. NYP to MTR is a shorter trip after all.

Excellent points, Mr. Figgatt! You've just located the source of the additional coach.

Why can't the Maple Leaf run with a mixed consist? Since the Maple Leaf spends 15% of its trip in Canada, it only makes sense for VIA to contribute one coach to each consist, and those should be available now due to VIA's cutbacks.

[goodnightjohnwayne]

The idea is interesting. If nothing else, extend one more Empire Service train over the border (or have two cars become through cars) in cooperation with Via or Go.

The demand isn't there for cross-border travel. In reality, the Maple Leaf is probably selling out between Albany and New York, not between Toronto and New York. Truth be known, it would be a heck of a lot more cost effective to terminate the Maple Leaf at Niagara Falls, NY, since the border crossing is so very time consuming. Considering the time you have a locomotive and consist tied up with the border crossing, then the turn around in Albany, if you cut out the border crossing, you'd probably have a enough equipment and personel for one (or two) additional daily round trips from Albany to New York.

Also, I'd hesitate to use the 80s or 90s as a comparison to service today or as a barometer for the success of possible new service. That was the day of very cheap gas, rather plentiful jobs, and the prevailing attitude that "Trains are for old folks and buffs". Today, most corridor trains are 4-6 cars as opposed to the mid-90s when 2-3 cars were the norm. A lot of new riders are on the system these days.

The consists really haven't changed all that much since the 80s and 90s, at least not in terms of the number of cars. However, ridership has improved tremendously west of Albany, but the real passenger volumes are from Albany south. Oh, and unemployment was always fairly high in Central and Western New York, where the local economy has been in a downward spiral for decades. And Amtrak tickets are hardly cheap, even in comparison to the price of gasoline.

[goodnightjohnwayne]

Why can't the Maple Leaf run with a mixed consist? Since the Maple Leaf spends 15% of its trip in Canada, it only makes sense for VIA to contribute one coach to each consist, and those should be available now due to VIA's cutbacks.

I'm not sure that with the budget cuts that VIA will be running to Niagara Falls, Ontario very much longer. Look to Go and the province of Ontario for the future of that service.

[Noel Weaver]

Given the length of the trip, the hassels of crossing the border and the amount of travel to and from Toronto I do not think a second train on this route would be at all justified. As to any overnight service, there is already overnight service between New York and Buffalo and there is not equipment available at present for any additional sleeping car service. Equipment will become available in the future but there are other markets where its use will be far more justified. As to Vermont, I think a return of the Montrealer would be a good thing, it is a more practical overnight route serving Vermont resorts as well as Montreal but again not until more sleeping cars become available. I would love to see the Vermonter extended to Montreal but any extension out of Vermont hinges on getting the border situation improved and reducing the costs associated with running to Montreal and whether this is possible or not at this point I don't think anybody knows. One thing that could happen would be an extension to Plattsburgh of one train out of Albany in the early to mid afternoon and Plattsburg early in the morning but this again hinges on whether New York State is willing to spend the money to support such a train and on whether equipment can be found to do this.
There are possibilities but I think New York - Montreal is more practical than New York - Toronto. There could be a lot of changes to all of these operations in the next few years involving New York, Vermont and Canada and I think it will be interesting.
Noel Weaver

[25Hz]

Keep in mind the train I observed/rode was in the middle of winter and still very crowded west of Albany.

The train I'm looking at is sold out all the way from nyp to alb to Toronto.

Maybe a good compromise is to extend a few empire trains across to nfs. By the time you get in to nfs currently with the one train, the car rental places are all closed up for the night. If you get in at 8 am everything is open and available. It's also easier time wise to get to the station if you're leaving at night, you're not cutting into sleep from the night before.

I really think this would make sense, this is just one way, if we did round trip, you could steal some pax from the airlines, but only if the pricing was right.

As far as scenery, this is about transporting people at a conviennt hour. They'd be able to see the gorge, whirlpool, and mist from the falls while going over the bridge. Most people would be sleeping I'd think most of the way. Pretty damn relaxing way to travel if you ask me.

Thinking again... Maybe 10 pm-10 am wood be best, ensures that you have all available local transportation as an option.

[goodnightjohnwayne]

Keep in mind the train I observed/rode was in the middle of winter and still very crowded west of Albany.

The train I'm looking at is sold out all the way from nyp to alb to Toronto.

Well, that's surprising, considering how tedious and time consuming it is to cross the border on the train.

Maybe a good compromise is to extend a few empire trains across to nfs. By the time you get in to nfs currently with the one train, the car rental places are all closed up for the night. If you get in at 8 am everything is open and available. It's also easier time wise to get to the station if you're leaving at night, you're not cutting into sleep from the night before.

Oh dear, and then you're back to the border crossing issue, which is the problem to begin with.

I really think this would make sense, this is just one way, if we did round trip, you could steal some pax from the airlines, but only if the pricing was right.

As far as scenery, this is about transporting people at a conviennt hour. They'd be able to see the gorge, whirlpool, and mist from the falls while going over the bridge. Most people would be sleeping I'd think most of the way. Pretty damn relaxing way to travel if you ask me.

Thinking again... Maybe 10 pm-10 am wood be best, ensures that you have all available local transportation as an option.

The Maple Leaf is long, slow ride. It's really much quicker and more convenient to drive across the border, or to fly. Both countries are very good at customs and immigration when it comes to airline passengers and personal automobiles. Trains and buses attract illegal immigrants, hence the elaborate and delay prone border procedure. Oh and I really don't remember any tremendous views from the bridge.

[Suburban Station]

The Maple Leaf is long, slow ride. It's really much quicker and more convenient to drive across the border, or to fly. Both countries are very good at customs and immigration when it comes to airline passengers and personal automobiles. Trains and buses attract illegal immigrants, hence the elaborate and delay prone border procedure. Oh and I really don't remember any tremendous views from the bridge.

elaborate? they're anything but elaborate. the problem isn't illegal immigrants pouring into canada from the US but that there are no facilities and unlike an airline, customs happens on the train. if you extend the trains to nfs and terminate them, you can do customs and immigration offboard in both directions for those trains just as they're finally going to do with the adirondack.

[R36 Combine Coach]

Greyhound runs 10 daily round trips between New York and Toronto, so there must be a market.

For an interim solution a Thruway connection could be used between Buffalo and Toronto, connecting to the Lake Shore or one of the 280-series Empire trains.

[Adirondacker]

One thing that could happen would be an extension to Plattsburgh of one train out of Albany in the early to mid afternoon and Plattsburg early in the morning but this again hinges on whether New York State is willing to spend the money to support such a train and on whether equipment can be found to do this.
Noel Weaver

It would be mostly empty.
It's faster to take Greyhound than it is to take the train. It's probably faster to hitchhike than take the train. A Thruway bus on the other hand might make more sense. But then there's Greyhound/Adirondack Trailways.

[Noel Weaver]

One thing that could happen would be an extension to Plattsburgh of one train out of Albany in the early to mid afternoon and Plattsburg early in the morning but this again hinges on whether New York State is willing to spend the money to support such a train and on whether equipment can be found to do this.
Noel Weaver

It would be mostly empty.
It's faster to take Greyhound than it is to take the train. It's probably faster to hitchhike than take the train. A Thruway bus on the other hand might make more sense. But then there's Greyhound/Adirondack Trailways.

Not really!! If the bus and train were to just serve Plattsburgh yes maybe the bus would outrun the train BUT there are a good number of intermediate stops that serve important resort and population areas and a bus making the same stops as the Adirondack makes could not come close to the same running time.
Noel Weaver

[Albany Rider]

I like the idea of a weekend overnight train with sleeper service from NYC to Toronto. It would even be useful in the Albany market.

As you suggest, too often the train is sold out on non-holiday weekends.

Implementation of such a good idea will probably have to wait until the Albany-Schenectady bottleneck is fixed and Amtrak gets more sleepers.

Tony

[R36 Combine Coach]

I like the idea of a weekend overnight train with sleeper service from NYC to Toronto. It would even be useful in the Albany market. As you suggest, too often the train is sold out on non-holiday weekends.

Implementation of such a good idea will probably have to wait until the Albany-Schenectady bottleneck is fixed and Amtrak gets more sleepers.

It has already happened. The "Niagara Rainbow" ran during the early-mid 1990s.

[Greg Moore]

All wonderful ideas.

Forget the money for a minute.

Where's the equipment? Hint, I don't think it's there unless you get creative.

As for trains to Canada, the issue really isn't illegal immigrants (that's fairly easy and not really an issue northbound).

It's drugs. Ask the conductors. You don't need to tear apart bathrooms and go through luggage to find illegal immigrants. You do when you're looking for drugs.
(there was a post here years back I believe quoting a conductor who had to deal with a bathroom that the border folks tore apart to look for drugs. Makes it pretty useless to the passengers later on.)

[ThirdRail7]

Amtrak has also added a coach from NYP to Albany to try to pick up this "local" traffic demand. In some cases, they need more than one coach, and in some cases, and in cases of the Adirondak this coach should really be dropped/picked up in Saratoga Spring as opposed to Albany (as this is often the key demand point for the Adirondack). And perhaps all this isn't enough.

Hmm. I've never been to Saratoga Springs, so I'll ask you jp1822: Amtrak has mechanical facilities and personnel in SAR to handle this move? There's room in this train station to just drop a random car, leave it there for a few hours, and pick it up later? There's a 480volt standby source to keep this car on power and ready for passenger use? There's an air source to keep the brake test valid, because if is off compressed air for over 4 hours, you're talking about a Class 1A brake test at best, a Class 1 at worst. If anything goes wrong you aren't at Albany, where you can execute repairs or swap out a replacement.

Many trains still have the 1/2 business class seating and 1/2 cafe seating on the Empire Corridor trains even though trains operating exclusively between Albany and NYP do NOT offer food service. However, these trains are part of the "Empire Corridor" pool and could end up making a Albany-NYP southbound run and then turn same day to make an afternoon or mid-day run up to upstate NY. BUT for those trains that may just be captive to NYP to Albany, Amtrak should replace such cars with just coach cars and eliminate the business class option. This may at least provide more "options" for passengers when trains get sold out.

NY state should at least be focusing more on its sole state supported train - the Adirondack. That train needs improvement - cars to amenities etc.

Yes...about that. The fleet is (pretty much) uniform for a reason. There are almost no trains that run exclusively NYP-ALB-NYP. There are a few sets that tend to stay local for a day or two however, if you remove the cafe, you rob yourself of the ability to combat a disruption. In other words, ALB 234 turns for NY 283 . You need the cafe car in the consist. ALB 236 turns for NY 235, so under your plan, the cafe car is removed. Sounds good, but now 234 has an equipment problem. Under the current, uniform fleet, 236's equipment can be moved up to represent 283. In your case, that equipment is useless as 283. You'd have to cut the extra coach and try to dig up a replacement cafe...which are quite elusive.

With a cafe in every consist, any set can represent any train, at any time, at any location. There are MANY days where the answer is "whatever is ready first, goes first."

PS: Please excuse the hijack!