Port Jervis Line - Graham Line changeover

Yes, but if he moves it to the MN forum, it will stay here (it will say Moved:, but appear both places) and both forums will be able to participate. This makes a whole lot of sense to me.

It was the position of Conrail that two lines through this area were not
needed and the Graham Line was in better shape, much better suited for
freight trains and could allow for expansion of the existing commuter
service.
I rode the main line through Middletown sometime in 1982 or so and it
was not in very good shape at the time.
Noel Weaver

IOW, Conrail was maintaining the Graham Line and allowing the old main to rot.

ericware wrote:Chester NY Historical Society home page

About halfway down the page, there is a pic of a Comet IA in Metro-North colors going through Chester Station in the spring of 1983. It said that Metro-North abandoned the line in favor of the "more efficient" Graham Line.

Metro-North re-configured the line when it took over passanger service from Conrail. It was indeed NIMBY pressure from Monroe, Middletown and Goshen which led the MTA to re-route the trains via the Graham line and build new stations at Salsibury Mills-Cornwall and Campbell Hall. Apparently the old alignment had several grade crossings through the downtown areas it ran through and it created traffic problems (despite only having three outbound and three inbound trains a day during the week). The people wanted it gone. The MTA was considering abandoning the line altogether north of Harriman, but thankfully that never happened. I personally hate the new alignment, it's pedestrian-unfriendly, with stations too far away from potential destinations by foot.

so the same Otisville station that exists today was the same as the early 80s?

It was indeed NIMBY pressure from Monroe, Middletown and Goshen which led the MTA to re-route the trains via the Graham line and build new stations at Salsibury Mills-Cornwall and Campbell Hall

More like the "found NIMBYs" gave Conrail the excuse they were looking for to close the Old Main.

firthorfifth06 wrote:so the same Otisville station that exists today was the same as the early 80s?

Yes, from SF to Harriman and from CP Howells to CP Sparrow the Southern Tier uses the original Erie alignment (with one exception to Otisville Tunnel. Before the tunnel was built the Erie went up over the mountain. You can still find remains of that old RoW.) The Main line was the southern portion that was abandoned while the Graham Line was left behind and is still used today.

RVRR 15 wrote:

It was indeed NIMBY pressure from Monroe, Middletown and Goshen which led the MTA to re-route the trains via the Graham line and build new stations at Salsibury Mills-Cornwall and Campbell Hall

More like the "found NIMBYs" gave Conrail the excuse they were looking for to close the Old Main.

I'm sure Conrail did not object when Metro North shifted service off of it in 1984.

I'm too young to remember the old alignment, so I can't comment on exactly how train service affected traffic through the towns served, but if it was anything like what the PVL does to traffic in northern NJ, it must've been infuriating to the locals, even with the paltry early 80's service levels.

With all the associated track reductions from Ridgewood to Suffern and CR spinning freight off the Souther Tier to other non-EL routes it was inevitable one of these two parallel routes would be abandoned. The Graham Line had plenty of excess capacity to host MN plus the NYS&W too. I would have liked to see the old alignment retained specifically for the NYS&W from Greycourt west to give the "Q" additional mileage on top of their L&HR segment. Were the grades on it similar or less severe than what the "Q" endures going through northern NJ and Sparta mountain?

Port Jervis wrote:

RVRR 15 wrote:

It was indeed NIMBY pressure from Monroe, Middletown and Goshen which led the MTA to re-route the trains via the Graham line and build new stations at Salsibury Mills-Cornwall and Campbell Hall

More like the "found NIMBYs" gave Conrail the excuse they were looking for to close the Old Main.

I'm sure Conrail did not object when Metro North shifted service off of it in 1984.

What makes you sure? That meant that commuter trains now joined their freight trains on the Graham Line.

I'm too young to remember the old alignment, so I can't comment on exactly how train service affected traffic through the towns served, but if it was anything like what the PVL does to traffic in northern NJ, it must've been infuriating to the locals, even with the paltry early 80's service levels.

What's with the dig at the Pascack Valley Line? The railroad does not affect traffic. Traffic affects itself.

Rest assured that three trains a day would not have backed up traffic, especially with the lower population of Orange County back then.

To answer the original question #3, I think the original alignment should have been kept. When I was in the area, the "abandoned" downtowns seemed like they could be great towns to live in if there was more employment and/or direct access to NYC.

I was thinking that if that was the case, I would move there in a heartbeat. Then I realized the locals would probably rather not have me and my "yuppie" ilk moving in in droves.

PS I'm not really a yuppy, but I would be one to them. Just like they are rednecks to me, even though they're not really.

[quote="wasKFC"]To answer the original question #3, I think the original alignment should have been kept. When I was in the area, the "abandoned" downtowns seemed like they could be great towns to live in if there was more employment and/or direct access to NYC. "

That is what the automobile was supposed to do. Eliminating the trains and adding cars. Well, maybe you had to be there then.

RVRR 15 wrote:

Port Jervis wrote:

RVRR 15 wrote:

It was indeed NIMBY pressure from Monroe, Middletown and Goshen which led the MTA to re-route the trains via the Graham line and build new stations at Salsibury Mills-Cornwall and Campbell Hall

More like the "found NIMBYs" gave Conrail the excuse they were looking for to close the Old Main.

I'm sure Conrail did not object when Metro North shifted service off of it in 1984.

What makes you sure? That meant that commuter trains now joined their freight trains on the Graham Line.

I'm too young to remember the old alignment, so I can't comment on exactly how train service affected traffic through the towns served, but if it was anything like what the PVL does to traffic in northern NJ, it must've been infuriating to the locals, even with the paltry early 80's service levels.

What's with the dig at the Pascack Valley Line? The railroad does not affect traffic. Traffic affects itself.

Rest assured that three trains a day would not have backed up traffic, especially with the lower population of Orange County back then.

I disagree. One train can create a loooooooong line of stopped traffic at a station grade crossing. It's not a dig, the train service is worth the inconveniences to drivers.

Port Jervis wrote:I disagree. One train can create a loooooooong line of stopped traffic at a station grade crossing. It's not a dig, the train service is worth the inconveniences to drivers.

It's always fun to bring a train into Rutherford between 3:30P and 7P. Not only does the circle become a parking lot, the drivers have to wait an added 2 or 3 minutes for the army of passengers to clear the streets.

sullivan1985 wrote:

Port Jervis wrote:I disagree. One train can create a loooooooong line of stopped traffic at a station grade crossing. It's not a dig, the train service is worth the inconveniences to drivers.

It's always fun to bring a train into Rutherford between 3:30P and 7P. Not only does the circle become a parking lot, the drivers have to wait an added 2 or 3 minutes for the army of passengers to clear the streets.

Yeah, I once did that earlier this year in the dark, and the headlights lined up on either side of the ROW stretched on for as far as I could see.