PL42AC thread

[Sirsonic]

Right, NJT would never ever blatantly ignore FRA regulations. If you believe that I have a bridge Id like to sell you...

The point, also, is not that loss of dynamic brake during braking leads to greater stopping distances, which it does on all older locomotives ( I haven't had the dynamic drop out on me on a PL42 yet...). The point is that the design of the PL42 takes control away from the engineer and gives it to a computer that has no interest in smooth, or safe, train handling. Then again, this is NJT where brake shoes are more important than people.

[NJT4207]

SirSonic,
I've been saying that since the Comet 4 & 5.Trainhandling is out the window & computers are in.

[sullivan1985]

The PL42AC (forget the road number) that sits in Hoboken ran on the Main Line thursday (10-27) with a full set of Comet I's.

[Don31]

The point is that the design of the PL42 takes control away from the engineer and gives it to a computer that has no interest in smooth, or safe, train handling. Then again, this is NJT where brake shoes are more important than people.

Computers??? GOD help us!!

[njtmnrrbuff]

I wonder where they will be over thanksgiving. I know it's too early but I would like to photograph them, even if they go through Upper Montclair.

[catch]

Dear Don31,

Why are you so against computers? The ALP44M has some, the ALP46 IS a computer loco (if NJT AND some driving engineers would let her ...).
Do you really think, a human control, which simply has only three positions at the throttle, full, zero and fully brake, is better??? (And if the track is slippery, only push the sand button or wants to have the computer (aha!!!) to do it?).

To handle a modern 3phase loco in the way to bann the silicon partner, it's like to deactivate the fuel-and the anti slide system of a modern car and put the fuel with cups the cylinders and brake by foot like 100 years ago.

So, please take into account, we are already in the 21st century. Or do you bann all the nice comfort, generated by the computers out of your daily life in the same hard way?

And, please notice, the software is not from Bill. Might be also a little difference.

Nice weekend

[DutchRailnut]

Planes are flewn by Computers.
Engine management on cars buses and trucks are handled by computer.
Big trucks have computer controlled gearboxes etc.But some Engineers think their skills outweigh the computer and only they should be able to say how a train stops.
Just remember its their railroad, and their locomotive, as long as thir signing my paycheck same way with the same numbers on it I will not fight a byte box.

[AEM7AC920]

Dear Don31,

Why are you so against computers? The ALP44M has some, the ALP46 IS a computer loco (if NJT AND some driving engineers would let her ...).
Do you really think, a human control, which simply has only three positions at the throttle, full, zero and fully brake, is better??? (And if the track is slippery, only push the sand button or wants to have the computer (aha!!!) to do it?).

To handle a modern 3phase loco in the way to bann the silicon partner, it's like to deactivate the fuel-and the anti slide system of a modern car and put the fuel with cups the cylinders and brake by foot like 100 years ago.

So, please take into account, we are already in the 21st century. Or do you bann all the nice comfort, generated by the computers out of your daily life in the same hard way?

And, please notice, the software is not from Bill. Might be also a little difference.

Nice weekend

Well I have a question for you, how many trains do you drive daily?

The computers are good in one way but can be terrible in others. Come on over to MBTA and see the GP40MC's that are basically an old freight loco that was stuffed with some computers that make the loco's fail and don't score the points with the engineers around here. How about the Breda trolley situation that we have around here? The trains had derailment problems but aside from that they still are not reliable because the computers will just lock the brakes up for no reason or do something else funny. I do know some Amtrak engineers that like the old ways of correcting wheel slips and other stuff like that, it makes them feel like they have control of the train. Yes all computeres have bugs but you have to realize that more engineers like the old way then you think. Not to mention, some enginners can run trains way better then the computers.

[DutchRailnut]

Ok nobody drives trains here in USA, we operate them or run them, and these days with help from a computer.

ps. them thar British choo choo's have drivers.

[AEM7AC920]

Does it really make a difference to you between drive and operate? People around here (including railroad workers) say drive and operate and could give 2 cents about which is which. Drive =To guide, control, or direct.... I could see if we were advertising jobs or something but what's the big deal around here..

[Jtgshu]

An engineer at NJT put it this way, "old school" vs. "computers" on board trains -

Imagine driving your car, but telling what the computer to do, and maybe sometimes it will do it, sometimes it wont, if it agrees with you or not. A lot like a hyperactive anti-lock braking system on a car - great idea in concept, but if the tires could jsut slide for half a second, the car would stop - nope, the anti lock keep going, and the car keeps going - albeit very slowly, but it just won't stop.

There is no way a computer can consider all teh variables that a human can, nor can it feel anything by the seat of its pants (cause it has no pants) all necessary qualities of a good engineer -

Computers to help the engineer and the loco or cars do what the engineer want to do are fine, computers that take away the abilities of an engineer to do what he wants to aren't.

As a side note, I think computers "prematurely age" equipment, and shorten their potential useful lives -- I can't imagine a PL42 being around in 2045 still pushing and pulling trains day in and day out like the GP40s are after all their rebuilds. Some comp techician (cause they will be the only ones who can actually work on them) will simply say "this whole system is so obsolete that it just needs to go away and start from scratch - your gonna have to spend X millions of dollars simply to rebuild these computers in this loco for the rebuild, but your gonna be rebuilding 15-20-25-30 year old computers, so you might as well start from scratch"

[catch]

Oh sorry, did I say there is nobody able to be better as a computer?

Some humans will be always better, but what I saw, was a "digital" driving behavior of a human, and as I've read "Computers, God help us", I'm noticed a really extreme opinion, and simple set one in opposite to strengh the sense of what I wanted to say.

So, if this has lead to a misunderstanding, I'm sorry. My opinion is very much more liberal, and in that case, is it only to see what those silicons really can do, if the would be allowed. A concept of integrated control might be only good, if this concept is used completly. Manual overrides based on individual pleasure or stone age views of sight are really destroying what a computer can do.

[Sirsonic]

Dear Don31,

Why are you so against computers? The ALP44M has some, the ALP46 IS a computer loco (if NJT AND some driving engineers would let her ...).
Do you really think, a human control, which simply has only three positions at the throttle, full, zero and fully brake, is better??? (And if the track is slippery, only push the sand button or wants to have the computer (aha!!!) to do it?).

To handle a modern 3phase loco in the way to bann the silicon partner, it's like to deactivate the fuel-and the anti slide system of a modern car and put the fuel with cups the cylinders and brake by foot like 100 years ago.

First, your idea of train handling is a very oversimplified idea taken to an extreme. However, if the current equipment has no problem AT ALL going from idle to 8 and back to idle, why does the new and improved "better" equipment have difficulty with it. Sounds like a design flaw to me. Maybe the design engineers should stop dealing in the theoretical, and speak with and observe locomotive engineers at work to design a better locomotive. Wait no, that would only make sense. We should have the people who have never even been on a train dictating operating practices to experienced professionals.

I have gone through this when the ALP-46s arrived, and following some modifications, they have proven to be able to run well, even with our barbaric methods of train handling. Once the input from those of us who run them was finally accepted, they have shown their true worth, and now I can say they are rather good locomotives, albeit with some annoying quirks (like the delayed reaction EPIC 2 brake system).

As I have no desire to get involved in a long drawn out discussion about the flaws of the PL42s only to be told I am running the engine wrong, as we can not make new locomotives as reliable and sturdy as the ones they replace, this will be my last contribution to this topic, where it concerns the operation of the PL42s.

[catch]

Ok, ok, stop.
It seemed so, that I cannot explain it in the right way. So lets look at the new diesel and that's all.
Bye

[SecaucusJunction]

Apparently the 4020 with several newer Comets are making some test runs today. It was spotted going north through Westwood just after noon today.