Phoenixville to Paoli

Yep, now the train sits on the westbound track in Paoli track and crosses over in the morning. Today, it was blocking the outbound train. Ah, the good ol' days. Now they struggle to simple reinvent the wheel. Maybe if they had destroyed their infrastructure. So much for looking ahead during tough times...

I haven't been to Paoli for a long time, I am surprised that they didn't retain the duckunder. What would it entail to restore it?
I think they had a good reason to tear up Paoli yard, I remember reading that there was quite a bit of PCB pollution, which would require digging up lots of dirt, but that doesn't explain why they would have had to fill in the duckunder. Unless SEPTA sold the land under the duckunder's access why can't they just reinstate it?

Pretty sure the land north of W Central Ave was sold, which would be needed to create a stub long enough to pull a train into. I'm guessing they could get a roughly 10 MU train into the old stub. If it hasn't been sold, then it could be done, but I suspect some of the land involved is earmarked for the future new station, and they'd also need to rehang the catenary.

When was that stub actually last used? Penn Central days? Back before Frazer yard opened in 1996 or so and the "Paoli Local" existed in great daily quantity, I always recall SEPTA trains using the MU yard just west of the N Valley Rd overpass, and crossing over to the inbound Paoli platform, rather than using the duckunder, even before the Paoli Shops were closed and the PCB cleanup started.

Honestly, I'm not sure they actually need the duckunder anymore. Without freight going through there, they shouldn't have any trouble finding time to switch over trains. A nice to have? Yes, but unlikely a need.

The elevation at Cedar Hollow Station on the old Reading line is 250', the elevation at top of Cedar Hollow Rd in Paoli at the Paoli yards is 529. @280 feet difference over roughly 4000 feet terrain is a 7% grade. Even the The Flåm Line in Norway struggles at a 5.5% grade.(one of the steepest standard gauge non-streetcar lines in the world. (some logging lines were steeper but not really conducive to passenger commuter service.)

The Postlingbergbahn, the world's second* steepest streetcar line, is a 1000mm adhesion mountain railway running from the station at Urfahr (the tram 3 terminal) with gradients up to 10.6%. * The world's steepest adhesion street railway is in Lisbon with a grade of 14.5%

I suppose a 'loop' could be made up Green Hollow to reduce the gradient by about half, but there's a lot of buildings in the way and even then a 3.5% grade is tough. Or a longer loop up Lancaster Pike on the north side of the road, or Old Lincoln Hwy but, still a lot of buildings to be replaced.

khecht wrote:Pretty sure the land north of W Central Ave was sold, which would be needed to create a stub long enough to pull a train into. I'm guessing they could get a roughly 10 MU train into the old stub. If it hasn't been sold, then it could be done, but I suspect some of the land involved is earmarked for the future new station, and they'd also need to rehang the catenary.

When was that stub actually last used? Penn Central days? Back before Frazer yard opened in 1996 or so and the "Paoli Local" existed in great daily quantity, I always recall SEPTA trains using the MU yard just west of the N Valley Rd overpass, and crossing over to the inbound Paoli platform, rather than using the duckunder, even before the Paoli Shops were closed and the PCB cleanup started.

Honestly, I'm not sure they actually need the duckunder anymore. Without freight going through there, they shouldn't have any trouble finding time to switch over trains. A nice to have? Yes, but unlikely a need.

We are hoping to regain that land to use the north end of the stub to connect with the Greenline to Phoenixville/Oaks. Don't think think we will bother with the duckunder, as the future Paoli Greenline station construction should coincide with the whole Paoi Transportation Center project.http://www.tredyffrin.org/departments/c ... n/ptc.aspx

Greenline here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Line_(Pennsylvania)

pacobell73,
How's the green line going to get up the hill from 202 to Paoli?

CarterB wrote:pacobell73,
How's the green line going to get up the hill from 202 to Paoli?

It may have to travel as far west as Frazer, then connect to the mainline and loop back to Paoli. The difference between the prevailing elevation (i.e, business Rt 30 and Swedesford Rd) and the R5 is much less at Frazer than at Great Valley (Rt 29 and/or Cedar Hollow Rd), plus, you could service a few more office parks along the way.

See the report here - http://www.mainstreetphoenixville.org/t ... _FINAL.pdf

I am sorry to report that PennDOT removed the four lane grade crossing on Rt. 29 this past Monday (7/12/10). The rails were cut on each end, the crossing with rubber mats lifted (now sitting under the PA turnpike overpass) and the crossing filled in with asphalt.

Below is the "before" shot. I will get the "after" shot. This removal will now add extra $$$ to the Greenline project. Even though this is where the street running would have begun, it still makes the line that much less passable.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... 2,,0,12.73

Is the Greenline project dead? Does anyone have a status report?

would this line work as BRT?

Suburban Station wrote:would this line work as BRT?

I believe it would. It would be ridiculous to put so much money into such a light rail line for "9-5" ridership. The most important thing with BRT is that the buses have to be comfortable, and run in their own ROW, BYPASSING traffic. SEPTA's (or whoever would operate the BRT service) method of putting standard transit buses on express runs would NOT suffice.

Tritransit Area wrote:

Suburban Station wrote:would this line work as BRT?

I believe it would. It would be ridiculous to put so much money into such a light rail line for "9-5" ridership. The most important thing with BRT is that the buses have to be comfortable, and run in their own ROW, BYPASSING traffic. SEPTA's (or whoever would operate the BRT service) method of putting standard transit buses on express runs would NOT suffice.

that's what I mean, using the same ROW but using buses and limited stops instead. I think off peak ridership should be run in conjunction with Amtrak Keystone service where there might be some benefit of people not driving to Paoli for a weekend trip to NY, etc).

Suburban Station wrote:

Tritransit Area wrote:

Suburban Station wrote:would this line work as BRT?

I believe it would. It would be ridiculous to put so much money into such a light rail line for "9-5" ridership. The most important thing with BRT is that the buses have to be comfortable, and run in their own ROW, BYPASSING traffic. SEPTA's (or whoever would operate the BRT service) method of putting standard transit buses on express runs would NOT suffice.

that's what I mean, using the same ROW but using buses and limited stops instead. I think off peak ridership should be run in conjunction with Amtrak Keystone service where there might be some benefit of people not driving to Paoli for a weekend trip to NY, etc).

I highly agree. Plus you could have the BRT bus serve more places in places like Great Valley without having to build trackage everywhere. The Lightrail idea faces similar problems to the Cross County Metro with the fact that the industrial parks have so much sprawl that most people won't be able to walk to their office.

Bus riders are not train riders. Very different clietele. Always has been.

Does anyone know what has become of Valley Forge Railways, Ltd. (VFRL). They were trying to obtain funding to continue service. Se below:

Docket Number: AB_290_297_X


Case Title: NORFOLK SOUTHERN RAILWAY COMPANY-DISCONTINUANCE OF SERVICE EXEMPTION-IN CHESTER COUNTY, PA

Decision Type: Decision

Decision Notes: DECISION TOLLED THE PERIOD OF TIME FOR VALLEY FORGE RAILWAYS, LTD. TO FILE AN OFFER OF FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE (OFA) AN ADDITIONAL 7 DAYS AND EXTENDED THE EFFECTIVE DATE OF THE EXEMPTION UNTIL 10 DAYS AFTER THE DUE DATE FOR AN OFA FILING.

SERVICE DATE – DECEMBER 7, 2007

SURFACE TRANSPORTATION BOARD
DECISION
STB Docket No. AB-290 (Sub-No. 297X)

Decided: December 6, 2007

Norfolk Southern Railway Company (NSR) filed a notice of exemption under 49 CFR 1152 Subpart F—Exemption Abandonments and Discontinuances of Service to discontinue service over a 7.70-mile line of railroad between milepost PX 3.10 and milepost PX 10.80 in Phoenixville, Chester County, PA. Notice of the exemption was served and published in the Federal Register on November 7, 2007 (72 FR 62907). The exemption was scheduled to become effective on December 7, 2007, unless stayed by the Board or unless a formal expression of intent to file an offer of financial assistance (OFA) under 49 U.S.C. 10904 and 49 CFR 1152.27(c)(2) was filed by November 19, 2007.

On November 19, 2007, Valley Forge Railways, Ltd. (VFRL), filed a formal expression of intent to file an OFA to subsidize continued rail service over the line. This filing automatically stayed the effective date of the exemption for 10 days, until December 17, 2007.[1] VFRL requested that NSR provide VFRL with the financial data and information prescribed in 49 CFR 1152.27(a).

Under 49 CFR 1152.27(c)(2)(ii)(B), the due date for OFAs in this proceeding is December 7, 2007. On November 30, 2007, VFRL filed a petition to toll the period for filing an OFA in this proceeding, until 7 business days after it has received the data requested from NSR. The Board will consider requests to toll the period for filing an OFA when a petitioner has failed to provide a potential offeror with the information necessary to the development of an OFA and that information is not contained in the petition. See 49 CFR 1152.27(c)(2)(i)(c). In this case, because the information necessary to formulate an OFA has not been provided, VFRL’s request will be granted. Accordingly, an OFA will be due 7 business days after NSR provides VFRL with the requested information, and the effective date of the exemption will be extended until 10 days after the due date of filing the OFA.

This decision will not significantly affect either the quality of the human environment or the conservation of energy resources.

It is ordered:

1. The time period for VFRL to file an OFA is tolled, until 7 business days after NSR provides it with the requested information.

2. NSR is directed to notify the Board in writing that it has provided VFRL with the information requested once it has done so.

3. The effective date of the exemption is postponed until 10 days after the due date for the filing of an OFA.

4. This decision is effective on its service date.

By the Board, David M. Konschnik, Director, Office of Proceedings.