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original Amtrak routes
- Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
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by trainmaster611
Considering that almost every rural railroad line, every branch line, at some point had passenger service, I would say none. There are routings, however, that specific Amtrak trains follow that would not have been followed by any specific train back in the day. For example, the Silver Star follows the ACL to Selma, NC then the Southern to Raleigh and when it gets to Lakeland, it goes to Tampa and then backtracks to continue on to Miami. Both examples are routings that no particular train would have covered but all segments were covered at one time by a passenger train.
by Ocala Mike
I would submit that the Amtrak route out of NYP to Spuyten Duyvil over the Empire Connection is a route that no passenger train could have traversed pre-Amtrak. The Penn Station connection didn't exist, and the west side line was used for freight only.
Also, agree with trainmaster above about the "toonerville trolley" backtracking run into and out of Tampa on the Silver Star. No real passenger railroad could have come up with such an operational atrocity back in the day.
Also, agree with trainmaster above about the "toonerville trolley" backtracking run into and out of Tampa on the Silver Star. No real passenger railroad could have come up with such an operational atrocity back in the day.
Ocala Mike (formerly Hillside Mike and Deer Park Mike)
by Noel Weaver
Ocala Mike wrote:I would submit that the Amtrak route out of NYP to Spuyten Duyvil over the Empire Connection is a route that no passenger train could have traversed pre-Amtrak. The Penn Station connection didn't exist, and the west side line was used for freight only.Way back when!! The New York Central at one time had at least a little bit of local service on the West Side Line to take passengers from the west side of Manhattan up the Hudson. I have seen copies of timetables showing this service but I do not recall the details. They also had scheduled mail and express trains on this line that lasted well through the 60's, again I do not know for sure when these trains came off although I probably could check timetables for that.
Also, agree with trainmaster above about the "toonerville trolley" backtracking run into and out of Tampa on the Silver Star. No real passenger railroad could have come up with such an operational atrocity back in the day.
A better question here would be what lines have passenger service today that did not have passenger service the day before Amtrak took over (April 30, 1971). There are several that fit on this one. Everything in Maine, New Hampshire and Vermont to begin with. Niagara Falls, NY, Selma - Raleigh - Greensboro, NC, Pittsburgh - Cleveland, Schenectady, NY (most of the line through Schenectady was out of service on day one of Amtrak) and Baltimore - Harrisburg via Perryville and the Columbia and Port Deposit. These are some starters, there are more but I'll let others add to these.
Noel Weaver
Noel Weaver
by Station Aficionado
The only bit of trackage that that comes to mind that Amtrak uses that was not used by a pre-Amtrak passenger carrier is the Cameron connection west of Galesburg. That's where the SWC shifts from the Q to the Transcon. Of course, that connection didn't exist until ATSF merged with BN in the '90's. There may be other small sections of track that did not exist in pre-Amtrak days that Amtrak uses. I highly doubt, however, that there is any track, that both dates from before Amtrak and that Amtrak now uses, which did not, at some point, host a pre-Amtrak passenger train.
by Gilbert B Norman
Station Aficionado wrote:There may be other small sections of track that did not exist in pre-Amtrak days that Amtrak uses.SW quadrant ACL/SAL X-ing @ Auburndale, FL. Used by 91-92 Silver Star and prior to that, Silver Palm.
Addendum: There was also a NW quadrant at Auburndale as well that enabled EB trains on the ACL from Tampa to access the SAL NB to JAX, but it appears Little Google Man cannot find any remnants of it. Obviously when CSX 'truncated" the SAL immediately North of Auburndale to Coleman (near Wildwood), there was no further need for this facility. From A-Day through the '80's, trains from Tampa were combined with those from Miami - all without a Yard crew and engine (there was an SCL Carman and maybe an Electrician assigned there - this was pre-HEP). I'm not certain if this quadrant was built solely for Amtrak use, as was the SW, or if it pre dated A-Day. On these points, I defer to others (Crazy Nip, where are you when we need you?). The only "post FEC Jan '63 Strike" facility needed to handle rerouted Miami trains was the pre-existing SE quadrant; fortunately that was ready to go when the strike began so there was no interruption of service that represented far more of the travel market than Amtrak could ever expect to.
Last edited by Gilbert B Norman on Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
by giljanus
Ocala Mike wrote:I would submit that the Amtrak route out of NYP to Spuyten Duyvil over the Empire Connection is a route that no passenger train could have traversed pre-Amtrak. The Penn Station connection didn't exist, and the west side line was used for freight only.Via the Canada Southern Railway website.
...
NEW YORK CENTRAL & HUDSON RIVER - June 1889
Hard to read, but local train service with connections at Spuyten Duyvil. Prices complete with commutation prices available.
30th Street Branch - page 3 of the PDF:
Code: Select all
Yes, it's not NYP, but it is from the site (more or less) of NYP.Stops at:
Mile Station
0.00 30th Street
59th Street (looks like 59th!)
5.24 Manhattan (130th Street - Manhattanville)
6.31 New York, 152nd Street
7.48 Fort Washington
9.08 Inwood
10.06 Spuyten Duyvil
Milage markers are from NYC Hudson Division Employee TT - October, 1960 - hard to read in 1889 TT.30th Street Branch not in the rest of the Passenger Schedules, but it is mentioned in several to see the separate Hudson Division Schedules, which are not at this site - except for 1 Employee TT from 1960 - listing Mail and Express trains - no passenger service - see NYC Hudson Division Employee TT - October, 1960
Gil, known as Bill somedays ...
And addition - And after a little more digging - the Mail & Express & Milk trains are listed in the NYC Electric Division Employee TTs of 1921, 1939, 1941 and 1948 - and even better yet - the NYC Electric Division Employee TT - June 26, 1921 shows passenger service and indicates which Milk Train connects to what connecting railroad - Rutland, D&H, Mohawk (Division), etc. In addition, there are no special instructions for these trains, so even the Milk trains could have had passenger service - the 1939, 1941 and 1948 all have the special instruction P - no passengers to be carried.
Where ever you go, there you are!
by R36 Combine Coach
The NYC's 30 Street Station was at 10 Avenue. The USPS Manhattan Parcel Post Complex is on the site (which also had its own spur on the High Line).
Since my friend continues to chain smoke nonstop, she is probably an Alco.
by giljanus
Yes, the NYC & HR terminal was on the city block bounded by 10th Avenue, 30th Street, 9th Avenue, and 29th Street - 1 block south and 1 west of Penn Station.
Gil, known as Bill somedays ...
Gil, known as Bill somedays ...
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Where ever you go, there you are!
by lstone19
To Noel's "what lines did not have service on 4/30/71" that do now, add Santa Clara - Oakland. SP's Coast Daylight went up the peninsula to San Francisco; Amtrak rerouted it to Oakland and combined it with the pre-Amtrak Cascade to form the Coast Starlight. Also, Roseville to Red Bluff(?) as the Cascade and originally the CS went up the west side line, not today's via Sacramento routing.
Also, I thought at the end, D&H were routing the Laurentian and Montreal Limited via Schenectady (no stop) on today's Adirondack route. When Amtrak started the Adirondack in 1974, it did go via Mechanicville (with a backup move to get from the NYC to the D&H at Albany) but once the line via Schenectady was renovated, returned to the Schenectady routing (which is not the traditional routing; that was north out of Troy (later Albany) to Mechanicville, then via the now abandoned passenger route to Ballston Spa (the ROW still crossed by bridges on the Northway and NY67).
Also, I thought at the end, D&H were routing the Laurentian and Montreal Limited via Schenectady (no stop) on today's Adirondack route. When Amtrak started the Adirondack in 1974, it did go via Mechanicville (with a backup move to get from the NYC to the D&H at Albany) but once the line via Schenectady was renovated, returned to the Schenectady routing (which is not the traditional routing; that was north out of Troy (later Albany) to Mechanicville, then via the now abandoned passenger route to Ballston Spa (the ROW still crossed by bridges on the Northway and NY67).
Larry
Reno, NV (yes, I've moved)
ex-N&W Sandusky, Ohio
Reno, NV (yes, I've moved)
ex-N&W Sandusky, Ohio
by ExCon90
Reverting to service on the west side of Manhattan, I once saw (I think in New York Central Headlight, of the NYC Historical Society), a timetable of the NYC&HR from the late 19th century showing local service between 30th St. and Grand Central Depot via Spuyten Duyvil and Mott Haven -- probably the fastest way of getting around up there before the IRT was extended.
In California, both the SP west of Port Chicago (or is it Pittsburg?) and the ATSF east of there had passenger service prior to Amtrak (although without looking it up I can't remember whether either service made it to April 30, 1971); however, as far as I know there was never through service via the present route prior to Amtrak.
In California, both the SP west of Port Chicago (or is it Pittsburg?) and the ATSF east of there had passenger service prior to Amtrak (although without looking it up I can't remember whether either service made it to April 30, 1971); however, as far as I know there was never through service via the present route prior to Amtrak.
by trainmaster611
You learn something new every day. After all this discussion about the west side line and a passenger station on 30th street, I decided to look it up on wikipedia. Apparently the west side line extended all the way down into Lower Manhattan and had a freight terminal at what is now St. John's Park. The article also mentions a lightly used passenger station -- "West Side Station" -- on Chambers Street. Could someone shed some light on this station?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Side_Line_(NYCRR)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Side_Line_(NYCRR)
ExCon90 wrote:Reverting to service on the west side of Manhattan, I once saw (I think in New York Central Headlight, of the NYC Historical Society), a timetable of the NYC&HR from the late 19th century showing local service between 30th St. and Grand Central Depot via Spuyten Duyvil and Mott Haven -- probably the fastest way of getting around up there before the IRT was extended.I highly doubt that was the fastest way. It's a one mile walk versus a 20 mile train trek which includes reversing direction at Spuyten Duyvil. On a side note, I'd love to see a through connection between Penn and Grand Central.
by giljanus
trainmaster611 wrote:You learn something new every day. After all this discussion about the west side line and a passenger station on 30th street, I decided to look it up on wikipedia. Apparently the west side line extended all the way down into Lower Manhattan and had a freight terminal at what is now St. John's Park. The article also mentions a lightly used passenger station -- "West Side Station" -- on Chambers Street. Could someone shed some light on this station?According to this 1865 newspaper article, the rail line started at Canal & West Streets, ran down Canal Street to Hudson Street, and then ran to the intersection with Chambers Street. It was authorized to be built in 1846, and must be finished in 4 years. The articles goes on about how a filing with the Register of the City of New-York on 4th of June, 1850, showed that the line as complete and in operation.
...
The rest of the article deals with complaints about the fares - of course. The article is actually a letter from the NY State Attorney General.
I've included a map and a couple of photos that I saved from many years ago - from where I can't remember. I also have some saved photos of St. John's Park Terminal which was located on the city block bounded by Hudson, Beach, Varick and Laight Streets - just 2 blocks south of Canal Street. It was a freight only terminal. Sometime after the freight terminal was finished, the line down to Chambers Street was closed in 1868 or 1869.
Hope this helps, and this is really getting off topic.
Gil, known as Bill somedays ...
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by hi55us
giljanus wrote:Thanks for the insight! The intersection of canal and west seems to have a lot of open space around it, never knew it used to have a train station. The intersection is right near the entrance to the Holland Tunnel.trainmaster611 wrote:You learn something new every day. After all this discussion about the west side line and a passenger station on 30th street, I decided to look it up on wikipedia. Apparently the west side line extended all the way down into Lower Manhattan and had a freight terminal at what is now St. John's Park. The article also mentions a lightly used passenger station -- "West Side Station" -- on Chambers Street. Could someone shed some light on this station?According to this 1865 newspaper article, the rail line started at Canal & West Streets, ran down Canal Street to Hudson Street, and then ran to the intersection with Chambers Street. It was authorized to be built in 1846, and must be finished in 4 years. The articles goes on about how a filing with the Register of the City of New-York on 4th of June, 1850, showed that the line as complete and in operation.
...
The rest of the article deals with complaints about the fares - of course. The article is actually a letter from the NY State Attorney General.
I've included a map and a couple of photos that I saved from many years ago - from where I can't remember. I also have some saved photos of St. John's Park Terminal which was located on the city block bounded by Hudson, Beach, Varick and Laight Streets - just 2 blocks south of Canal Street. It was a freight only terminal. Sometime after the freight terminal was finished, the line down to Chambers Street was closed in 1868 or 1869.
Hope this helps, and this is really getting off topic.
Gil, known as Bill somedays ...
by Tom coughlin
Other routes that were added after "A" day:
Boston section of the Lake Shore Limited
Crescent
Routing of the California Zephyr and Amtrak predecessors: via the D&RGW and via the former Western Pacific from Wells, NV to SLC (previous Amtrak service had gone via the Southern Pacific's Lucin Cutoff to Ogden; is that right?)
Tom Coughlin
Stow, MA
Boston section of the Lake Shore Limited
Crescent
Routing of the California Zephyr and Amtrak predecessors: via the D&RGW and via the former Western Pacific from Wells, NV to SLC (previous Amtrak service had gone via the Southern Pacific's Lucin Cutoff to Ogden; is that right?)
Tom Coughlin
Stow, MA