original Amtrak routes

Not sure if this would apply to the original inquiry "Amtrak routes were never covered by pre Amtrak RR's." May I submit the various routes of the Amtrak "J W Riley" now "Cardinal" Chicago-Cincinnati segment. I recall the 1970s former C&O routing through LaCrosse, Peru, Marion, Muncie, and Richmond, IN and onward to Cincinnati via several routes over the years. I believe there was no C&O passenger routing through that part of Indiana at least on the eve of Amtrak.

Amtk30

The short section of the Ethan Allen route from Whitehall, NY to Rutland, VT. The now (now a part of VRS) was once operated by D&H. Not sure (if ever) there were passenger trains on that line.

CNJ wrote:The short section of the Ethan Allen route from Whitehall, NY to Rutland, VT. The now (now a part of VRS) was once operated by D&H. Not sure (if ever) there were passenger trains on that line.

Yes.

From NORTHFIELD NEWS IN HISTORY - 2011-08-18 - 125 Years Ago

The most popular excursions ever run by the Central Vermont railroad are in progress now… Next week, Tuesday, Aug. 24, the excursion will include…Northfield to Saratoga and return for only $1.50. The train leaves Northfield at 6:15 and going via Burlington and Rutland and then over the D.& H. railroads arrives at Saratoga at 12:30 p. m. Returning, the train leaves at 4:30 p.m. …excursionists (will) see a place that has a world wide reputation, located in a most charming situation where nature and wealth has combined to make it one of the most lovely spots on earth. Plenty of cars will be furnished so that no one will be crowded…This is positively the best and cheapest excursion ever offered in Vermont. By paying $1 extra you can remain overnight and return on regular train the next day.

Notice the words - return on regular train the next day - implies that there was regular, scheduled service available to/from Vermont via the D&H.

Gil, known as Bill somedays ...

The D&H actually ran quite a bit of passenger service into Rutland in ancient times. I have a D&H timetable dated October 1, 1905, that shows four weekday passenger trains each way over the Rutland-Whitehall line, plus an additional three trains in and out of Rutland via Eagle Bridge. Incidentally, in 1905 you could ride from New York to Rutland via Albany in about seven and a half hours; today it's about a six hour ride. Progress!

As was noted at the beginning of this tread, if you go back far enough almost every mile of track in the country had passenger service. There were a few exceptions like some coal mine branches and logging lines, but they represented a tiny fraction of the country's rail mileage circa 1900.

I guess I should have specified that I was seeking info concerning any new row's Amtrak may or may not have built. Nevertheless, this thread has gone in interesting directions!

As for routes that Amtrak physically created, the best known one was the (14 miles?) Post Road-Renssalaer track reconstruction (earlier abandoned) that again allowed direct movement between Boston and the Albany-Renssalaer station. Later lines created by or for Amtrak would include short new trackage around replacement stations, such as the new station at St. Louis.

NRGeep wrote:I guess I should have specified that I was seeking info concerning any new row's Amtrak may or may not have built. Nevertheless, this thread has gone in interesting directions!

Specifically connecting the west side line (above where it became the Highline in name and spirit) into Penn Station is definitely all new.

Qualifying as a new ROW would be the short-lived Amtrak service to the Philadelphia Airport (at one time, Amtrak Atlantic City service operated to/from there). The route (today's still in-service SEPTA airport line) was, as I understand, pieced together from an old PRR branch, a NEW connector to an old Reading branch, and then the NEW airport trackage.

Tom coughlin wrote:Other routes that were added after "A" day:
Boston section of the Lake Shore Limited
Crescent
Routing of the California Zephyr and Amtrak predecessors: via the D&RGW and via the former Western Pacific from Wells, NV to SLC (previous Amtrak service had gone via the Southern Pacific's Lucin Cutoff to Ogden; is that right?)

Tom Coughlin
Stow, MA

Am I correct in thinking that the B&A passenger main from Post Road to Rennselear was removed in Penn Central days and rebuilt when the Boston section was restored?

Yes. To the best of my recollection, PC told Amtrak it had no need of the Post Road-Rensselaer segment (since all freight traffic went via the Castleton bridge) and said that if Amtrak wanted to use it they would have to buy it or take it over, since PC was going to abandon it. Roger Lewis, president of Amtrak at the time, had been appointed largely to preside over the demise of inter-city passenger service and foresaw no likelihood of Amtrak's ever needing it. When the Boston section was established it had to make some kind of awkward move (down to the Hudson Line and back up to Post Road?) before proceeding eastward to Pittsfield and beyond; the schedule provided a generous allowance of time for the move. I thought at the time Amtrak could run an ad in the Albany newspapers:
All-Steel Vestibuled Limited
THROUGH TO PITTSFIELD IN 3 1/2 HOURS
Electrically Lighted Throughout

... but they never did.

trainmaster611 wrote:You learn something new every day. After all this discussion about the west side line and a passenger station on 30th street, I decided to look it up on wikipedia. Apparently the west side line extended all the way down into Lower Manhattan and had a freight terminal at what is now St. John's Park. The article also mentions a lightly used passenger station -- "West Side Station" -- on Chambers Street. Could someone shed some light on this station?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Side_Line_(NYCRR)

ExCon90 wrote:Reverting to service on the west side of Manhattan, I once saw (I think in New York Central Headlight, of the NYC Historical Society), a timetable of the NYC&HR from the late 19th century showing local service between 30th St. and Grand Central Depot via Spuyten Duyvil and Mott Haven -- probably the fastest way of getting around up there before the IRT was extended.

I highly doubt that was the fastest way. It's a one mile walk versus a 20 mile train trek which includes reversing direction at Spuyten Duyvil. On a side note, I'd love to see a through connection between Penn and Grand Central.

If by "a one mile walk" you mean the distance between 30th St. and Grand Central, what I was referring to was getting from the Upper West Side to midtown -- there were local stations along the route. I don't know that a reversal of direction was necessary at Spuyten Duyvil; as far as I know the wye was put in when the connection from there to Mott Haven was built.

So no one has found any piece of railroad, no matter how short, that existed before Amtrak, and never carried passenger trains before Amtrak-- but has carried Amtrak scheduled passenger trains?

Did the Pennsylvania RR ever have passenger service on the Pennsylvania portion of the Columbia & Port Deposit RR? I know that Octararo Branch passenger trains used the South end of this line to get to the wye at Perryville.
Did the St. Charles Air Line in Chicago, Ill. have passenger service?

timz wrote:So no one has found any piece of railroad, no matter how short, that existed before Amtrak, and never carried passenger trains before Amtrak-- but has carried Amtrak scheduled passenger trains?

I think I've found a piece: the Minnesota Commercial Railway's main line between the BNSF and CP lines in St. Paul, now home to Amtrak's MSP Midway Station. I can fairly conclusively say that it never hosted scheduled passenger traffic before 1978.

From what I can tell, two predecessor companies (the Minnesota Transfer Railway and a subsidiary, the Minnesota Belt Line Railway and Transfer Company) operated infrequent mixed trains from New Brighton to a location called "Como Crossing" until 1903*. Presumably this means the location where Como Avenue crosses the MTR line, here. Amtrak does not use this track, joining either the ex-GN or the ex-NP mains just south of Como Avenue. Since the Minnesota Transfer's charter only mentioned freight service, the Minnesota Attorney General's office opined that the company was not burdened with providing passenger service. Though the original Minnesota Belt Line Railway and Transfer Company charter did refer to passenger service, the track to the south was not burdened with such a need. I also doubt that any other railroad had scheduled service over its line, as every passenger service between Minneapolis and Saint Paul either ran on the Great Northern, the Northern Pacific, or the Milwaukee Road exclusively.

Not to say that no one ever detoured a passenger train over the line, but I think this is a good candidate for "no scheduled service prior to Amtrak."


* My source is here, a Google Books scan of a Minnesota Railroad and Warehouse Commission report from 1903.

JimBoylan wrote: Did the St. Charles Air Line in Chicago, Ill. have passenger service?

Probably. I'd look for Illinois Central trains to Dubuque.

mtuandrew wrote: I think I've found a piece: the Minnesota Commercial Railway's main line between the BNSF and CP lines in St. Paul, now home to Amtrak's MSP Midway Station. I can fairly conclusively say that it never hosted scheduled passenger traffic before 1978.

And you just found the same one I thought of!