Open Vestibule windows / dutch doors

David Benton wrote:Actually, Don was talking from the point of view of the serious photogragher, nothing to do with safety.

I know he was. But the serious photographer is not a paying passenger unless he or she is a part of the runby photo line, at which time etiquette would dictate that windows are closed. Otherwise, he's the freeloader taking pictures while the guy in the vestibule is a paying passenger.

And none of that changes the past 5-10 years of his awful rants and baseless commentary.

There's nothing in the article to suggest he is a freeloader, and plenty to suggest he contributes significantly.

June TRAINS was in my "to read" pile that surrounds my easy chair in my Living Room, but with this discussion continuing, I was compelled to push it up in the pile.

I've now read the Phillips column and I fail to see any rant regarding Dutch Doors. I only note a comment that passengers on some fan trips, namely those being the N&W 611, are prohibited from opening such.

We certainly have presented enough comment here to establish that, while once upon a time, a passenger was expected to use common sense and if having failed to do so, well.......sorry 'bout that.

Finally, regarding Mr. Phillips' continual attacks on Mr. Boardman's stewardship of Amtrak, "bad stuff happened" on his watch. The fact remains that two fatal incidents occurred that Amtrak pure and simple "owns", i.e. no outside parties with which the blame can be shared and both clearly the negligence of Amtrak employees. Further, it's starting to appear a lot (NYP infrastructure) has been "swept under the rug" that is now coming to confront his successor.

I have subscribed to TRAINS magazine for over 50 years and generally skip Mr. Phillips' column - I also got sick of the predictable almost continuous anti-Joe Boardman rants. Otherwise I think the magazine content is the best it has ever been.
Getting back on topic, vandalism was also around back during my prime open Dutch door riding days in the '60s and '70s. The New Haven Railroad would put stickers on cracked windows stating something like "This broken window was caused by senseless vandalism and will be expensive to repair."
Today I enjoy an open window, Dutch or baggage car door on heritage / tourist railways. Don't think I'd do it on the N E Corridor. Guess I am older and wiser.

David Benton wrote:There's nothing in the article to suggest he is a freeloader, and plenty to suggest he contributes significantly.

There is not one sentence to suggest he donates or otherwise supports the museum. The entire column discusses making trips for photography. At no point does it say he buys the tickets and rides the train. Even if he were a museum donor, the paid passengers on the train take priority over the non-paying passerby. It would be like complaining about the seats in Boston Garden while watching from home on television.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:I've now read the Phillips column and I fail to see any rant regarding Dutch Doors.

page ten, paragraph 2, sentence 2. "By far the best at this are the operators of Norfolk & Western 611, partly because they don't allow people to open Dutch doors and hang out".

Boo freakin hoo. What a jerk. Maybe Mr. Philips should buy a ticket, occupy a vestibule, and close the door and ride behind the glass. He can then create a geocities blog called "the righteous railfan" and blow his horn about it all day long. Rumor has it Joe Boardman also reads Trains, in retirement, from back to front rather than front to back, so there's something for his blog, too.

CVRA7 wrote:I have subscribed to TRAINS magazine for over 50 years and generally skip Mr. Phillips' column - I also got sick of the predictable almost continuous anti-Joe Boardman rants. Otherwise I think the magazine content is the best it has ever been.
Getting back on topic, vandalism was also around back during my prime open Dutch door riding days in the '60s and '70s. The New Haven Railroad would put stickers on cracked windows stating something like "This broken window was caused by senseless vandalism and will be expensive to repair."
Today I enjoy an open window, Dutch or baggage car door on heritage / tourist railways. Don't think I'd do it on the N E Corridor. Guess I am older and wiser.

Well said. I would not open a door/window in parts of Chicago.

Man killed sticking his head out train window was railway fanatic.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/man- ... -hw95t0rq7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Gilbert B Norman wrote: Finally, regarding Mr. Phillips' continual attacks on Mr. Boardman's stewardship of Amtrak, "bad stuff happened" on his watch. The fact remains that two fatal incidents occurred that Amtrak pure and simple "owns", i.e. no outside parties with which the blame can be shared and both clearly the negligence of Amtrak employees. Further, it's starting to appear a lot (NYP infrastructure) has been "swept under the rug" that is now coming to confront his successor.

While you are entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts. For what its worth, Mr. Boardman has continually mentioned the need for improvements and investments. Please allow a brief fair use quote from Amtrak at a Junction: Invest in Improvements, or Risk Worsening Problems:

Senator Chuck Schumer of New York, the minority leader, said Amtrak’s recent problems might prompt Congress to offer more support for the railroad.

“The most vexing thing here, that really is just troubling, is this could have been prevented,” Mr. Schumer said in an interview, referring to the derailments.

In a letter to Congress inFebruary 2016, Amtrak’s last chief executive, Joseph H. Boardman, warned that the railroad’s “outdated and inadequate infrastructure” must be replaced. After nearly eight years on the job, Mr. Boardman called once more for higher levels of federal investment.

The letter was prescient.

“My successor, if he or she is fortunate enough to spend as many years in this position as I have, will not have much time,” he wrote, “to reverse current trends before they adversely affect our performance and the economy.”

This was not swept under the rug. This was quite open.

Have ridden the vestibule on a jam-packed NEC train more than once over the years. Last time was a summertime trip from KIN to NYP maybe 5 years ago. Was preferable to walking the whole train with my luggage trying to find a seat. Conductor just handed me my seat check, said something should free up after Stamford. Nothing that enjoyable about the vestibule of an Amfleet...

Tadman wrote: Why, then, is Amtrak so rabidly against passengers opening door windows on Superliners or Horizon cars?

This:

Noel Weaver wrote:Problem today is lawsuits and they come from everywhere with lawyers advertising on TV all the time, you have suffered from injuries, let me recover for you. Is it any wonder that regulations have been enforced?
I used to love riding in a dutch door and did my share of them over the years. Another big issue today is the presence of vandals all along the ROW with rocks aimed at trains, you do not want to be a target in a moving passenger train, they hit like bullets and can do as much damage to your body parts as well. Vestibule riding for me today? NO THANKS!!\

They are a liability. If something comes flying through the window, it will cause injury.When we still had the Heritage (I believe they were called Congo) coaches, they had dutch doors. If you opened them, you were on your own. They are pinch points. The trains have A/C so I can't see any real reason for them to be open. As for hanging in the vestibule, I hope everyone realizes that the vestibules on the Horizons, Amfleets and the Acela sets are crumple zones. That's the last place I want to hang out!

Ridgefielder wrote:Conductor just handed me my seat check, said something should free up after Stamford. Nothing that enjoyable about the vestibule of an Amfleet...

BTDT. Also, remember when the LIRR used to run between stops with doors open. And the lighting in the vestibules on those old (M)P-72/75 cars never worked and if it did, it stunk anyway. Conductors told you to hold on, usually. Was also the unofficial smoking area in the later years.

Some European equipment I quite nice there, as I found out when I didn't have a seat reservation in Germany :/ The NS stuff even has flip down seats.

Speaking of seat checks, that's one thing I wish they'd do in Europe. I once had my ^%$#&# ticket checked like 6 times on a German train (so much for German efficiency - though we did arrive on time, so there's that...)

As for hanging in the vestibule, I hope everyone realizes that the vestibules on the Horizons, Amfleets and the Acela sets are crumple zones. That's the last place I want to hang out!

I don't want to be anywhere on a train that's crashing. I prefer my trips to have less drama than that...

As a kid I vividly remember the NJDOT/NJT open door policy on the NEC. Arrow set out of NY, the crew would leave the traps down and doors open from Newark Penn to Linden (N. Elizabeth and Elizabeth were still low level at the time). I believe it was the 4:10 Matawan local out of NYP to N. Elizabeth, standing in the vestibule the whole way. No one fell out......it was just business as usual. Certainly didn't mind being jam packed in the summer with the doors open. Too bad this litigious society and lack of common sense we have now prohibits this.

Growing up on the Lackawanna's Gladstone Branch, doors and traps were routinely left open and since it was single-track, boarding and deboarding on the non-platform side (to/from the ballast) was permitted. I'd dare say many commuters had their walk to the train so perfectly timed that they would have missed the train had they not been permitted to board from the non-platform side.

It is unfortunate we have become such a litigious society, but we are. And as such the Class 1's incl. Amtrak have no alternative but to keep everyone away from the vestibules. Fortunately many tourist lines are still willing to take that risk. One of my most recent open window/dutch door trips was on the Durbin and Greenbrier Valley RR. Gorgeous scenery, a reasonable track speed, and good ol' clickety clack is certainly more enjoyable with an open window. The transfer at Cheat Junction to the Cass RR provided more of the same delights we used to enjoy from open windows/dutch doors on the likes of the Owl eyes on the NEC, or about any long distance train. I believe pre Amtrak I spent more time at the open dutch door in the vestibule than in my space in the sleeper, and lived to tell about it.

I believe Mr Phillips has some of the same problems as do I. We unfortunately remember how good it used to be and it is aggravating to see the level of passenger service we are now provided. But, it's certainly better than the fate of passenger trains in countries such as Mexico. So, I will try very hard to be thankful for Amtrak and hopeful that Mr. Moorman can improve overall service levels and is successful in getting financial support from Congress.

Regarding photography, sure it's better if a train full of railfans aren't hanging out the windows, so I don't understand the criticism of Phillips for that. And, after a 611 trip on a Roanoke-Lynchburg excursion last year I understand even more what the loss of the open windows means. I missed the sounds and smells of that wonderful J and even rarely saw the engine on curves as the dome was almost at the rear of the train (I understand they have since moved it forward in the train). It makes me wonder how viable such an excursion is for the long term. I had a much better encounter last weekend at the NC Transportation Museum when 611 was chugging around the museum grounds (and the short distance it's allowed out in the adjoining NS yard). Riding in one of the three coaches, one of them a beautifully restored SR heavyweight, was a lot better bang for the buck than the Lynchburg trip. And we got to enjoy the 'Texas' on display as a bonus, along with a good portion of that museum's locomotive roster.

palmland wrote:
Regarding photography, sure it's better if a train full of railfans aren't hanging out the windows, so I don't understand the criticism of Phillips for that.

There are a number of reasons I criticize Phillips. First, he seems to be a very negative person. Second, he's especially negative when something good or fun is happening. Opening a vestibule door and catching some air or scenery, as the original post posits, is fun. I did it last summer in Alaska and enjoyed it more than the dome car.

Finally, as a lawyer, I feel obligated to point out that Phillips has no standing. He is not a paying customer, while the passengers in the vestibule are indeed paying customers. He is not a party to the contract, just a bystander that has not managed his expectations well.