• Official Conway Scenic Railroad Thread (CSRR) -2009

  • Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New England
Pertaining to all railroading subjects, past and present, in New England

Moderators: MEC407, NHN503

  by trainut2008
 
http://www.epa.gov/EPA-IMPACT/2007/Marc ... /i3885.htm


Check out this site and learn about the FRA and Locomotive Sanders. Once you get onto that site scroll down about 1/4 ways and find page [9906] scroll down a little more and read "A" Adhesion. I myself think these FRA people know what they are talking about and they make the rules. It's not Rudy Hoods fault that our sanders are not up to snuff. He does the best he can do with what he's given to work with. Notice that the Tourist Railroad Industry is a big part of formulating these FRA rules and guidlines and we give train rides. So many times it's asked that a contributor provide proof of this and that statement. For instance.... traction can be increased up to 30% with the use of sanders on ruling mainline grades, but if our equipment doesn't work or the sand isn't there or not the right type then Rudy's wheels are going to be spinning. Plain and simple fact. :-D
  by Mikejf
 
I seem to recall a few years back that a transit railroad in New England had trouble with leaves, making things slippery. Their trains were off schedule. I don't remember what line but it made a monthly magazine as news. And they are on flat ground with frequent trains.
Fact of railroading everyone has to deal with in the Fall, even Conway Scenic. And if they were only late a few times, they did well.
  by shadyjay
 
miketrainnut wrote:I seem to recall a few years back that a transit railroad in New England had trouble with leaves, making things slippery. Their trains were off schedule. I don't remember what line but it made a monthly magazine as news. And they are on flat ground with frequent trains.
Fact of railroading everyone has to deal with in the Fall, even Conway Scenic. And if they were only late a few times, they did well.
Probably Metro North you're thinking of... they have quite the arsenal of "leaf-fighting equipment" now. A couple of their branches and one of their mains are prone to the problem due to the wooded areas they traverse.
  by Otto Vondrak
 
slrr1 wrote:Ever heard of sand? Question How could 3 MEC u-boats pull 50 cars up through the notch, and 3 CSRR engines can't pull 5? this baffles me. There are sanders for a reason If you have to, throw on dry sand on the rails with you're hands, but slip up the grade? really?...
Hey Will... let us know when you finish high school and start working for a railroad. You will get all the training you'll need to understand why your above statement is lacking in substance.

-otto-
  by SilverLakeRailroad
 
Deleted by author
Last edited by SilverLakeRailroad on Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  by b&m 1566
 
trainut2008 wrote:Let 's all pay attention. railroads put sanders on their locomotives for one reason and that's to maintain traction on slippery rail regardless of what may be covering them, rain, frost, snow, ice, grease, oil, leaves, grass,weeds or dead chipmunks. From #7470 to U Boats, #573 and all their F units all Conway Scenics locomotives came equiped with them when they were built. D/E units come equiped with traction motor slip warning lights that warn the engineer of wheel slippage and the need to apply sand. Yes, I know Rudy Hood is a fine engineer, his experience plying the rails for the B&M RR remain unsurpassed by any of us at CSRR. One problem, if only our equipment was maintained properly and real sand and I mean the correct grade of sand was purchased, stored properly and the equipment used to apply this sand worked like it should there wouldn't be the need to have all this extra power to handle 5 cars with a few passengers riding in them. You're right " cogger " MEC used to use as many as 6 units up front and 2 pushing at the rear to get a westbound up through the notch. There's one problem with what you stated, and " slrr " hit it right on the money. Conway Scenic isn't moving heavy tonnage, five coaches is not fifty+ loaded freight cars. I don't know of any railroad that goes running around with leaf blowers on the lead unit. I'd wager that PanAms sanders work better than ours do. Like everything else if stuff isn't fixed right or don't work right at all then when you need it most, it will let you down every time. I could see if the leaves that happen to fall over the rails were from one of those Elephant trees with leaves the size of seat cushions but they are not. I can't picture PanAm, CSX, Amtrak crying they can't make a schedule because a few leaves were on the rail. That's crazy!
Do you work for the railroad?
Your stating that the railroad doesn't properly maintain the sanders nor use the correct sand, why is that? They run a rail line with steep grades; you would think that properly operating sanders along with the correct sand would be a big priority for a railroad running in a mountain region. It doesn’t make any sense!

In other news, how did this past weekend’s trip for the 470 Railroad Club go? I'm surprised nobody has mentioned anything yet. How did the Kiwanis trip on Sunday go?
  by BR4
 
The 470 Trip was pretty good. I guess, from what I have heard, that Ron Cole-470 president-has decided that they'
will no longer try to go to Hazen's. He says most passengers would rather stop at the Cider Mill and Crawfords, than
make the extra mileage.

The trip started with a stop at Depot St platform where anyone could get out and get pics of the train coming across the
new bridge next to the North-South Rd. (Artists Rd?) Then onto the Cider Mill. After that, a couple of runbys westbound;
one at the Gateway.....pretty cool.

Stopped at Crawfords for about 45 minutes, to visit the depot and the Highland Center. Turned at Fabyans, 2 runbys on the way back for a total of 4 for the trip. Pretty good trip in all. A little disappointed that we didn't go further, but it was a
beautiful day with abundant sunshine. CSRR has done some cutting in several spots, opening up some views. Looking
god up there. With the leaves thinning out, you could see a lot more than in the summer.
  by Stag Hound
 
Wow! Talk about a "sand storm!" Yuck, yuck, yuck.

All kidding aside though, anyone who has spent anytime around locomotives will tell you sanders can be one of the most tempermental pieces of a locomotive. Sand that becomes damp will freeze in colder temperatures, creating blocks that get lodged in the sand chamber, preventing sand from properly flowing to the wheels. This is especially true on older equipment.

Wet leaves on rails is a hard-fact of New England railroading, whether it is the Conway Scenic or Metro-North Commuter RR. In fact, Metro-North trains were literally sliding through stations and creating horrible flat spots on wheels such that the mill could not keep up. Hundreds of MU cars had to be sent to New Haven to have their wheels turned, making for some noisy hosptial trains!

Please gentlemen, do your homework and stop making these ridiculous blanket statements. I enjoy reading these forums and would like them to remain civil.
  by trainut2008
 
http://www.epa.gov/EPA-IMPACT/2007/Marc ... /i3885.htm

Yes B&M 1566 I do work for the railroad, have no doubts about it. I also stand by all my statements made thus far. I'm also in complete agreement with the discussions, rules, regulations etc, set forth by the FRA regarding sanders on locomotives. Please, all those interested in this topic should enjoy clicking on this link that I have included above and broaden your knowledge about sanders. I firmly believe that by not adhering to those FRA rules and guidelines regarding sanding equipment that when they don't work properly for whatever reason that we have no one but ourselves to blame for a stalled train. Also, one other thing, it would take several pages to go into every detail of what the FRA found wrong here during a not to long ago inspection. This is as far as I desire to go regarding this area.
  by trainut2008
 
To quote Stag Hound...Wet leaves on rails is a hard-fact of New England railroading, whether it is the Conway Scenic or Metro-North Commuter RR. In fact, Metro-North trains were literally sliding through stations and creating horrible flat spots on wheels such that the mill could not keep up. Hundreds of MU cars had to be sent to New Haven to have their wheels turned, making for some noisy hosptial trains.

Sounds like a employee traning issue here. Proper use of the trains air braking system should result in safe dependable stops at all station platforms. Application of sand during stops does nothing to improve the stopability factor. Earlier lighter application of the air brakes would greatly reduce the possibility of over shooting the platform which then results in wasting more time having to back the train up. One thing is very certain however, the wheel mills must love all the money flowing their way from the coffers of Metro-North. :-)
  by Noel Weaver
 
trainut2008 wrote:To quote Stag Hound...
Sounds like a employee traning issue here. Proper use of the trains air braking system should result in safe dependable stops at all station platforms. Application of sand during stops does nothing to improve the stopability factor. Earlier lighter application of the air brakes would greatly reduce the possibility of over shooting the platform which then results in wasting more time having to back the train up. One thing is very certain however, the wheel mills must love all the money flowing their way from the coffers of Metro-North. :-)
I doubt if you have ever had any experience running a modern main line commuter train at least legally and probably not at
all or you would not say what you just did here. I ran trains a long time in the Metro-North territory and often no matter
what the engineer did or tried to do the train just would not stop where it should have stopped. Maybe if you are so smart you should go down there and show them how to accomplish stops in slippery conditions with MU equipment, slip slide, train control and no sand.
The equipment is probably better today and they have taken some steps to improve the operation under wet rail conditons but nothing is fool proof or perfect.
Your statement that "application of sand during stops does nothing to improve the stopability factor" is totally incorrect. My
years of experience tells me that. I ran trains on branch lines with grades as well as the main line, leaves are leaves and
slippery rail is slippery rail no matter where.
Noel Weaver
  by Meyblc
 
slrr1 wrote:
Ever heard of sand? Question How could 3 MEC u-boats pull 50 cars up through the notch, and 3 CSRR engines can't pull 5? this baffles me. There are sanders for a reason If you have to, throw on dry sand on the rails with you're hands, but slip up the grade? really?...

Hey Will... let us know when you finish high school and start working for a railroad. You will get all the training you'll need to understand why your above statement is lacking in substance.

-otto-

Will, Don't take it to personal. On occasion, Otto likes to single people for public embarrassment and humiliation. There are a few of us here who have been on the receiving end of Otto's "words of wisdom." It's Otto's web site so I guess he can do what he wishes. 2 general warnings for you. Do not ever mention Hobo's or the MEC 501 on this web site and you should be ok.

Mike Yeager
  by Stag Hound
 
Thanks, Noel, for the support on this one.

FYI, the New Haven wheel mill is run by the MTA/CDOT and therefore has nothing to gain by this problem.

Seems we have an awful lot of "deskchair engineers" 'round these parts!

PS I don't know what those boys do up in northern New England but down here in CT we just ordered some snow studs for our locomotives. Tirerack.com is having a sale on Goodyears but really they're all good. Just stay away from those "ricer" tires. They blow easily going over crossings!
  by trainut2008
 
I don't mean to wreck your day Noel but if you click on that link to that FRA Sander page and scroll down you'll see that it's right here on page #9907 Section B. Braking Distance They've conducted tests on this very question as to whether the application of sand helps or not and this is the official position of the FRA report. I know you have had years of experience with The New Haven and Conrail. there have also been lots of studies about this and what you have stated flies in the face of the FRA summary of the same thing. Again, perhaps everyone who wants to say well this or that worked for me should click on the link and read it. I'm not pointing the finger at anyone here, just stating the facts as described in this FRA document. Pg. # 9907 Section B. Braking Distance

As sanding may increase the coefficient of friction between wheel
and rail, one may anticipate that sanding can reduce the stopping
distance of a train from braking, especially on wet rail. However, the
following factors should be considered before drawing such a conclusion:
? The increase in friction is on the first few sets of axles
only (i.e., on the locomotives). Sanding will splash and be dispersed
rather quickly from the rails once several wheels roll over it. Over 90
percent of the wheels in a train will likely not receive any benefit
from sanding. Thus, it is unlikely that the stopping distance will be
affected by it.
? Wet rail and dirty rail can be dried out and cleaned out
rather quickly with the rolling of several axles on it. In numerous
field tests, the second locomotive's tractive effort is always 20-30
percent higher than the first unit, especially on wet rail. This is an
indication that the rail can be dried out and cleaned out just by one
locomotive passing over it. Therefore, wet rail conditions will only
affect one to two locomotives, and the rest of a train will be braked
on relatively dry conditions, even though the rails are originally wet.
Given the above explanation, sanding will hardly make any difference in
the braking performance of all the cars behind the locomotives.
? Engineers have been trained to rely on dynamic brakes
instead of the pneumatic brakes, unless during extreme emergency
situations. In emergency braking, little difference will occur in
stopping distance with or without sanding because, as explained
earlier, sanding likely only affects, if any, the braking efforts of
the first few axles.
? When insufficient adhesion prevails during braking, the
wheels may slide. The coefficient of friction during this sliding will
maintain the retardation rate of the trains.
Therefore, it is not surprising that the results of CN's testing
show that the emergency braking stopping distances under various speeds
and conditions were unchanged by sanding. However, the results of the
test of the stopping distances of a short VIA passenger train with and
without sanding were somewhat less expected. The conclusion for the VIA
test was the same as that for the freight trains. As the train consist
is very short for the passenger trains, typically as short as several
vehicles, the factors described above are not all applicable to the
passenger trains. It may be expected that some effect would occur on
the stopping distance of a passenger train as a result of sanding. The
vehicles in the tested passenger trains had mixed wheel and disk
braking, but it is not clear as to how disk braking is affected by
sanding. Nonetheless, the tests with VIA trains, submitted by the AAR
with the petition, showed that sanding had no effect in the stopping
distance of the trains. Even if sanding can affect the braking of these
short passenger trains, we should note that the stopping distance of a
short passenger train is extremely short compared to the heavy freight
trains, and therefore the actual difference in the stopping distance
will not be too significant. Some MU equipment always avoids sanding
because this equipment is light and the number of axles in a train is
usually small, thus, rail-shunting ability may get affected by sanding.
This is the primary reason why the MU equipment is not equipped with
sanders.
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