NYSW Passenger Service Restoration

northjerseybuff wrote:Of course it would be beneficial! If you build it they will come. Don't over build and do it correctly! run it rush hour only! start simple..2 train sets east and 2 west! do a trial run! see if it catches on!

Ok dude, it's time to chill the heck out. I don't think I've ever seen so many fragmented thoughts or exclamation points in a post on here before.

There's no money! NYS&W is difficult to work with! It'll cost too much to get the proper agreements in place! There won't be that much service! 2 trains won't reduce traffic at all! Slow travel times! Minimal ridership despite what people on here with no knowledge of rail service planning say! I feel like I'm taking crazy pill! I'm losing my voice from internet shouting!

And breathe.

uzplayer wrote:

SecaucusJunction wrote:Lets all just agree that while this might be a good idea, it's never going to happen and move on.

You never know.

I don't say this much, but sj seems to have a handle on things here.

uzplayer wrote:

cruiser939 wrote:We've had exhausting conversations about this via pm's. I support any project that adds a significant number of riders to the system or greatly improves the reliability of already existing service so that it can justify the huge outlay of money. Specifically, I support Northern Branch, MOM, and anything that can help the bottleneck between Newark and NYC. The problem you have is that you just blindly support anything that gets proposed and then I have to be "the bad guy" who comes along and tells you that the benefits don't justify the huge waste of money.

Ok... If you do in fact support projects that in your own words "adds a significant number of riders to the system" put your mouth where your money is. Take one weekday morning off, start driving from Route 23 in Franklin NJ to points in Paterson, Newark, Jersey City and New York, NY...Experience the traffic. In the meanwhile, while you are stuck on Route 23, take a look at the tracks that parallel the road...see how they are just sitting there, with maybe one or two freight trains going over them per week.

Then read up on why the counties cannot expand Route 23...

You'll get the idea from there.

You want me to put my mouth in my back pocket? The expression is put your money where your mouth is. You don't seem to understand that I am well aware of the traffic situations. Not just there but at several key areas around the state. It's kind of part of my job. Stop with these ridiculous challenges and such. I know what traffic is, you what traffic is, and most of the people on here know what traffic is. Just because there might be a train doesn't mean that there won't be traffic. How many cars do you honestly believe will be removed from the road because of a couple trains? Wait, stupid question. Knowing you, you'd probably say all of them...

I've got a good question for you in the spirit of "tit for tat". You asked me if there were any projects that I did support... well are there any projects that you don't support?

uzplayer wrote:

cruiser939 wrote:Again, you are assuming that just because you think it's a super cool project, everyone else does also. If you're correct, then starting the Pro-NYS&W passenger restoration party would be a grand idea. Let us know how that goes.

This is a the third time you have accused me of speaking as a railfan. I'm not doing this because this is a "super cool" project. I am doing this because I firmly believe that this will improve the lives of countless individuals, and provide access to thousands of economic opportunities not otherwise easily accessible. I have provided links to data in the past on commuting behaviors from Northwest NJ, as well as the justifications. As you have told me to search for your responses, I suggest that you do the same before jumping to conclusions again.

And further to our PM's as you remember, I am not a normal railfan. I am a business professional who wants access to opportunity. For me, sitting on a train (delayed or not) working on a laptop sure as hell beats sitting on a bus or sitting in traffic on Route 23 every morning. Maybe if you were in our situation, you'd change your tune.

Ugh, you don't seem to learn... ever. Don't think that because we took our debate to pm's and we had a discourse means that I think you're not a normal railfan. Yes, you are able to form some well thought out paragraphs but the thinking behind those paragraphs is what is flawed. If you keep blindly rambling on about wasteful projects because of some inherent belief that they are the greatest thing since sliced bread, then there really is no difference between you and some little kid who just likes to watch trains. You provided one link to some commuting data which you made several leaps of judgement in citing as the basis for you support. Quite frankly, I don't think that you'll ever see the light on these issues.

uzplayer wrote:

cruiser939 wrote:I know we've been over this in another thread, but any restoration of passenger service would not be privately run.

A "private / public" partnership is different then having a private entity run the service. For the record, I agree with this. While I am a capitalist and like to see small businesses succeed, I do believe that in this situation, you cannot come up with a creative enough solution to solve this problem. Now if you had a private / public partnership with a transit authority established, bringing in contributions from the local towns and hiring a company like NYSW to run the service, then it might work.

Again, we've already been over this. That you haven't understood this fact is regrettable. If the train is coming from wherever it is and going to connect to the Main Line and be run into Hoboken, no one other than NJT rail crews will be getting the work.

What is it with these ideas of "public/private partnerships" and other people or companies doing the work that should be that of NJT employees all of a sudden?

Sheesh.

Not for nothing, but we kinda know what we are doing. Often times bad commutes are not the fault of the train crews and NJT employees, but other factors out of our control (believe it or not, but most won't believe it) but we do manage to get hundreds of millions of rides a year safety to where the passengers want to go to, in some of the most congested and complicated railroads in the country.

Have some company come in and outsource the work in a "partnership" and pay the employees meager wages. See how well that works. It worked great for the airlines contracting out their commuter and puddle jumper services. Id love for my pilot (or engineer) to be working 2-3 jobs to survive and making 20k a year at each of them. Im sure he is real dedicated and alert and safe. Just who I want to have my life in their hands while running the train or flying the plane..... So what if a plane crashes here or there, they are saving money and the tickets are cheap!!!

God forbid someone who isn't a white collar make a livable wage and have good benefits and only need one job to survive.....the horror.

uzplayer wrote: Ok... If you do in fact support projects that in your own words "adds a significant number of riders to the system" put your mouth where your money is. Take one weekday morning off, start driving from Route 23 in Franklin NJ to points in Paterson, Newark, Jersey City and New York, NY...Experience the traffic. In the meanwhile, while you are stuck on Route 23, take a look at the tracks that parallel the road...see how they are just sitting there, with maybe one or two freight trains going over them per week.

Then read up on why the counties cannot expand Route 23...

You'll get the idea from there.

I would bone up on the history of Route 23 before you say that we can't expand it. For a time during the 50s and 60s, there were plans to make Route 23 a freeway from Interstate 287 in Piscataway to High Point. Clearly it didn't happen. Because of the proposals in the 50s and the 60s, and outrage 95% of the projects got, Route 23's major expansion as a freeway from Piscataway to Verona to Wayne to Wantage to High Point never happened. Route 14, a Butler - NY freeway never happened. Many people hated most of the ideas, or their ideas just weren't economically possible.

A lot of the people that complain on the traffic for Route 15, Route 23, Interstate 78 kind of have to realize, you're predecessor generation opposed it then and spoiled it for the rest, or the planners were way over their head. Why does Interstate 95 just end at U.S. Route 1 and suddenly became Interstate 295? Blame NIMBYs. Its over 50 years since the proposal made, and the project made to solve that is facing problems. If you're in the traffic on Route 23, which I have never seen much of along its route pardoning one Saturday in Wayne once, don't blame NJ Transit for not helping the situation, blame the people of the past and the planners.

What I find ironic, is I've been stuck in more traffic jams on Route 15 in the reverse direction, heading away from the areas in question. I'd like to see personally more proof that Route 15 and Route 23 are dyingly in need of rail traffic.

cruiser939 wrote:You want me to put my mouth in my back pocket? The expression is put your money where your mouth is. You don't seem to understand that I am well aware of the traffic situations. Not just there but at several key areas around the state. It's kind of part of my job. Stop with these ridiculous challenges and such. I know what traffic is, you what traffic is, and most of the people on here know what traffic is. Just because there might be a train doesn't mean that there won't be traffic. How many cars do you honestly believe will be removed from the road because of a couple trains? Wait, stupid question. Knowing you, you'd probably say all of them...

If monitoring traffic situations is part of your job, then to be blunt, you are not doing your job. I could say something much more rude and hurtful to you about keeping your job, but i'll try to act as civil as possible...even though you are not, nor have ever returned that civility.

As for removing cars from the road, I refer back to a previous quote...where I said this will "NOT" be a silver bullet for solving the traffic problems of the area, but it will help.

cruiser939 wrote:I've got a good question for you in the spirit of "tit for tat". You asked me if there were any projects that I did support... well are there any projects that you don't support?

Current or all? If you are talking all, here is a quick list...not all encompassing.

1. Cape May Seashore Line - Not enough ridership goes into Cape May to warrant service... Seasonal? Maybe
2. Access to the Regions Core - Pointless terminus
3. Most Bus Service, such as the proposed bus-titution of the Princeton Junction extension
4. The Northern Branch in it's current form... I think the whole HBLR Project was done wrong from the beginning... Light rail works in Jersey City and some of the outlying areas in vicinity to Hoboken... but travel times for Light Rail trains on the Northern Branch would not make having an extension like this out there sufficient. I could be wrong however...and if I am, please provide me with the facts.
5. Lackawanna Cutoff in it's current state - While something is better than nothing, and people WILL ride from Andover, I share the agreement that they should have completed the whole alignment.
6. Washington Metro Rail Extension to Dulles Airport - Don't get me started on this one.

cruiser939 wrote:Ugh, you don't seem to learn... ever. Don't think that because we took our debate to pm's and we had a discourse means that I think you're not a normal railfan. Yes, you are able to form some well thought out paragraphs but the thinking behind those paragraphs is what is flawed. If you keep blindly rambling on about wasteful projects because of some inherent belief that they are the greatest thing since sliced bread, then there really is no difference between you and some little kid who just likes to watch trains. You provided one link to some commuting data which you made several leaps of judgement in citing as the basis for you support. Quite frankly, I don't think that you'll ever see the light on these issues.

If you honestly think I support this project because it's a "cool project," then you have not learned what I am all about. If you call this project wasteful, I'd challenge you once again to sit in the traffic from Route 23 in Franklin NJ all the way down to New Jersey / New York's big business centers and then say this would be wasteful.

I'm on the ground talking to people...within one town already. People want this service. We have over 40 fans on our Facebook page right now and tentative meetings which will take place in Butler and Vernon NJ in the fall. It would seem that while you think this is a wasteful project, over 40 people so far (and growing) think that this project is not.

cruiser939 wrote:Again, we've already been over this. That you haven't understood this fact is regrettable. If the train is coming from wherever it is and going to connect to the Main Line and be run into Hoboken, no one other than NJT rail crews will be getting the work.

Who says it has to run into Hoboken?

Jtgshu wrote:What is it with these ideas of "public/private partnerships" and other people or companies doing the work that should be that of NJT employees all of a sudden?

Sheesh.

Not for nothing, but we kinda know what we are doing. Often times bad commutes are not the fault of the train crews and NJT employees, but other factors out of our control (believe it or not, but most won't believe it) but we do manage to get hundreds of millions of rides a year safety to where the passengers want to go to, in some of the most congested and complicated railroads in the country.

Have some company come in and outsource the work in a "partnership" and pay the employees meager wages. See how well that works. It worked great for the airlines contracting out their commuter and puddle jumper services. Id love for my pilot (or engineer) to be working 2-3 jobs to survive and making 20k a year at each of them. Im sure he is real dedicated and alert and safe. Just who I want to have my life in their hands while running the train or flying the plane..... So what if a plane crashes here or there, they are saving money and the tickets are cheap!!!

God forbid someone who isn't a white collar make a livable wage and have good benefits and only need one job to survive.....the horror.

For the record, I appreciate NJTransit and the services the organization provides. I also like the Wayne Transit Center. It's convenient and has plenty of parking for those days when I am in New York.

Hey Cruiser, I mentioned just weekday service because there aren't too many big towns along the right of way that would justify it, at least early on. In addition, no major highways nearby. The closest one is probably 80. It took me a few days to realize the fact that this line would be better off with weekday service.

uzplayer wrote:There are actually 4 viable destinations for Sussex, Passaic and Morris County residents living in the area of this railroad. They are:

Paterson
Newark
Jersey City / Hoboken
New York

In my journeys around Sussex County (and for that matter, if you want to refine the target even more, Vernon NJ,) I have encountered at least one person who engaged in a commute like this. For me, I commute to Paterson in the fall and winter (mainly evenings) and New York every 1-2 months.

If they schedule the service appropriately and have 4 trains each (Paterson, Newark, Jersey City / Hoboken / New York) going directly to, or stopping on the way to each of these destinations, I think it would work. This is only my speculation though.

If the service was to be along the lines of the original study, you wouldn't be able to reverse commute as the service was Eastbound only in the mornings and Westbound only in the evenings. Again if this was ever to happen, the original study had the trains hitting all stops along the Main Line after swinging onto it in Hawthorne, and atop of that, the initial study put the Sparta-Hoboken trip at 1 hour 43 minutes (the traffic isn't THAT bad.) They did provide 1 express run that bypassed everything except for Paterson on the Main Line and according to that schedule, it shaved a mere 13 min off it. Even whatever advances that have come about in the 16 years since wont shave much time off that run due to the geography of the line and like I said previously, there's not much room to put a significant amount of parking to make the stations effective.

uzplayer wrote:
Who says it has to run into Hoboken?

You actually think this will get a slot into Ny Penn?

Roadgeek Adam wrote: I would bone up on the history of Route 23 before you say that we can't expand it. For a time during the 50s and 60s, there were plans to make Route 23 a freeway from Interstate 287 in Piscataway to High Point. Clearly it didn't happen. Because of the proposals in the 50s and the 60s, and outrage 95% of the projects got, Route 23's major expansion as a freeway from Piscataway to Verona to Wayne to Wantage to High Point never happened. Route 14, a Butler - NY freeway never happened. Many people hated most of the ideas, or their ideas just weren't economically possible.

A lot of the people that complain on the traffic for Route 15, Route 23, Interstate 78 kind of have to realize, you're predecessor generation opposed it then and spoiled it for the rest, or the planners were way over their head. Why does Interstate 95 just end at U.S. Route 1 and suddenly became Interstate 295? Blame NIMBYs. Its over 50 years since the proposal made, and the project made to solve that is facing problems. If you're in the traffic on Route 23, which I have never seen much of along its route pardoning one Saturday in Wayne once, don't blame NJ Transit for not helping the situation, blame the people of the past and the planners.

What I find ironic, is I've been stuck in more traffic jams on Route 15 in the reverse direction, heading away from the areas in question. I'd like to see personally more proof that Route 15 and Route 23 are dyingly in need of rail traffic.

Actually, the Highlands Act prevents any further expansion of highways such as Route 23 through Sussex County. All the politicians are against it as well.

On a side note, they are also unsure about this service as well. So either way, it's an uphill battle.

And, I must mention, in addition to it being an uphill battle, it is indeed an uphill route.

Yes, uphill.............molehills that some want to make mountains out of. Ain't gonna happen. Let's move on to more pressing projects that actually have a chance.

njt/mnrrbuff wrote:Hey Cruiser, I mentioned just weekday service because there aren't too many big towns along the right of way that would justify it, at least early on. In addition, no major highways nearby. The closest one is probably 80. It took me a few days to realize the fact that this line would be better off with weekday service.

See, I can appreciate a little sarcasm and self-deprecation.

uzplayer wrote:

cruiser939 wrote:You want me to put my mouth in my back pocket? The expression is put your money where your mouth is. You don't seem to understand that I am well aware of the traffic situations. Not just there but at several key areas around the state. It's kind of part of my job. Stop with these ridiculous challenges and such. I know what traffic is, you what traffic is, and most of the people on here know what traffic is. Just because there might be a train doesn't mean that there won't be traffic. How many cars do you honestly believe will be removed from the road because of a couple trains? Wait, stupid question. Knowing you, you'd probably say all of them...

If monitoring traffic situations is part of your job, then to be blunt, you are not doing your job. I could say something much more rude and hurtful to you about keeping your job, but i'll try to act as civil as possible...even though you are not, nor have ever returned that civility.

As for removing cars from the road, I refer back to a previous quote...where I said this will "NOT" be a silver bullet for solving the traffic problems of the area, but it will help.

Where did I say that monitoring traffic situations is part of my job? All I said was that I am aware of where there are traffic problems around the state and that knowledge is part of what allows me to effectively do my job. If you want to say rude things that you think will be hurtful to me but will help make your point, I encourage you to do so, either on here or by pm. I'm a big boy, I can handle being called names which apparently you can't. Every time the word railfan or foamer get's thrown out it's like the end of the world with you. You are always preaching "but it will help". Sooner or later you'll have to face the fact that just helping isn't always a good enough cause. Why is it that you think spending hundreds of millions of dollars on a service that will barely run and will take a few cars off the road is such a good idea? Because those few cars are no longer there so traffic will ease all of a sudden? Come on dude...

uzplayer wrote:

cruiser939 wrote:I've got a good question for you in the spirit of "tit for tat". You asked me if there were any projects that I did support... well are there any projects that you don't support?

Current or all? If you are talking all, here is a quick list...not all encompassing.

1. Cape May Seashore Line - Not enough ridership goes into Cape May to warrant service... Seasonal? Maybe
2. Access to the Regions Core - Pointless terminus
3. Most Bus Service, such as the proposed bus-titution of the Princeton Junction extension
4. The Northern Branch in it's current form... I think the whole HBLR Project was done wrong from the beginning... Light rail works in Jersey City and some of the outlying areas in vicinity to Hoboken... but travel times for Light Rail trains on the Northern Branch would not make having an extension like this out there sufficient. I could be wrong however...and if I am, please provide me with the facts.
5. Lackawanna Cutoff in it's current state - While something is better than nothing, and people WILL ride from Andover, I share the agreement that they should have completed the whole alignment.
6. Washington Metro Rail Extension to Dulles Airport - Don't get me started on this one.

What's ironic is that many of the projects listed that you don't support are actually good projects that have huge benefits. I know it shouldn't come as a surprise to me since you throw your heart and soul behind every stupid little rinky-dink project that get's mentioned, but perhaps there's something greater to be learned here. Maybe you are like the anti-progress railfan? That'd make you somewhat unique I guess.

uzplayer wrote:

cruiser939 wrote:Ugh, you don't seem to learn... ever. Don't think that because we took our debate to pm's and we had a discourse means that I think you're not a normal railfan. Yes, you are able to form some well thought out paragraphs but the thinking behind those paragraphs is what is flawed. If you keep blindly rambling on about wasteful projects because of some inherent belief that they are the greatest thing since sliced bread, then there really is no difference between you and some little kid who just likes to watch trains. You provided one link to some commuting data which you made several leaps of judgement in citing as the basis for you support. Quite frankly, I don't think that you'll ever see the light on these issues.

If you honestly think I support this project because it's a "cool project," then you have not learned what I am all about. If you call this project wasteful, I'd challenge you once again to sit in the traffic from Route 23 in Franklin NJ all the way down to New Jersey / New York's big business centers and then say this would be wasteful.

I'm on the ground talking to people...within one town already. People want this service. We have over 40 fans on our Facebook page right now and tentative meetings which will take place in Butler and Vernon NJ in the fall. It would seem that while you think this is a wasteful project, over 40 people so far (and growing) think that this project is not.

Jiminy Cricket! Will you stop with the stupid challenges already! I know there's traffic there, what will me sitting in it accomplish? There's traffic all over the state. Should silly little services have money thrown at them everywhere there is traffic now? I'm real glad to know that you're "pounding" the ground out there drumming up support and that you have some fans on facebook. You do realize that some pretty hideous organizations such as terrorist groups have fans on facebook also right? Having fans there doesn't really add credibility. It's reveals a lot about you though that you think the support of 40 random people who demonstrate that ability to click a button trumps the experience of people who do this as a profession...

uzplayer wrote:

cruiser939 wrote:Again, we've already been over this. That you haven't understood this fact is regrettable. If the train is coming from wherever it is and going to connect to the Main Line and be run into Hoboken, no one other than NJT rail crews will be getting the work.

Who says it has to run into Hoboken?

Are you honestly saying that you think it shouldn't? If so, you might be more misguided than I originally thought. Where (in your great service planning experience of course) would you have this service terminate and how, if it was anywhere other than Hoboken, would it make sense?