NYSW Passenger Service Restoration

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/0 ... _to_a.html

It sounds like their aiming to a Stockholm/Beaver Lake terminus. I've noticed several members here have suggested that and I think it would work finest considering the curve at Beaver Lake to Sparta is insanely long.

Beaver Lake would make sense as the space is there if they wanted to develop some sort of yard. There were I believe 5 yard tracks up there in addition to 2 or 3 service tracks for steam engines to handle the Hanford Branch traffic. Of course most of that didn't make it to the diesel years of the Q.

That's however one of the few places where there's room and one of the key issues to the whole project is space. If you consider where the original stations stood and where the existing ones are, there's no room to create any substantial parking. I believe that was an issue even in the 96 study.

dano23 wrote:Beaver Lake would make sense as the space is there if they wanted to develop some sort of yard. There were I believe 5 yard tracks up there in addition to 2 or 3 service tracks for steam engines to handle the Hanford Branch traffic. Of course most of that didn't make it to the diesel years of the Q.

That's however one of the few places where there's room and one of the key issues to the whole project is space. If you consider where the original stations stood and where the existing ones are, there's no room to create any substantial parking. I believe that was an issue even in the 96 study.

Adds the question, should NJ Transit consider only a yard in Beaver Lake or a Station & Yard? Beaver Lake made it for passenger service until 1935. Would a station at Beaver Lake potentially reduce Stockholm ridership?

http://www.csxsd40kid.rrpicturearchives ... id=2564419 (This photo from Sully gives quite the view. The remains of the Beaver Lake station are on the left. The yard itself is where the trees are now to the right basically.

cruiser939 wrote:Whether or not the the T&E employees here support this project is useless. Heck, it doesn't even matter whether us management types support this. It has to do with politics and money; it's that simple. Whether or not JT and Jim put little patches on their bags supporting this or I walk around the office talking about the merits of this service (of which there are little; don't fool yourself) is useless.

Cruiser... I notice you tend to be a very negative individual. Whether or not it is because you never found a true cause to believe in or support, I have no idea. Nevertheless, you out of all people should know that any cause starts with one person, supported by others, which eventually grows into a major effort. I fully do not expect to succeed immediately within the first year...although if I do, then all power to it. At the end, it will take at least 1.5 to 2 years to get the funds and go-ahead. The tracks are there, and the technology exists to do something that will positively impact the community and the region at large. The question is, will you support it?

Forgive me for being blunt cruiser... But I think you have been in the business so long, that you have become biased to the possibilities. I think you need to start exploring new, creative and at the end, inexpensive and efficient alternatives to helping residents in your home state get access to critical opportunities, of which will at the end, help keep everyone on this forum, and outside of this forum stay employed and access new opportunities.

That's my two cents on the subject. Say what you will. But at the end, I doubt you can challenge this one.

Roadgeek Adam wrote: Adds the question, should NJ Transit consider only a yard in Beaver Lake or a Station & Yard? Beaver Lake made it for passenger service until 1935. Would a station at Beaver Lake potentially reduce Stockholm ridership?

http://www.csxsd40kid.rrpicturearchives ... id=2564419 (This photo from Sully gives quite the view. The remains of the Beaver Lake station are on the left. The yard itself is where the trees are now to the right basically.

There were actually 3 tracks to the left as well.

They would probably have to cram the station in there as well as again the space issue. They could possibly use that park and ride lot across from Richs' Deli that they always say nobody ever uses and sneak something over there but asides from that there's not much open space. Even where 515 meets 23 there's no room to build.

Doubt Beaver Lake would work. Its swamp and open waters on both sides of the track just beyond where the short yard tracks had been. Couple that with the entire area being in the Highlands and its a non-starter. NJ or NJT supposedly already bought property for a yard in Hardyston, which had been an old garbage dump. The cleanup of the dump was coupled with constructing a layover yard. This is west of Sparta and east of Franklin near Lazinski Road.

I happen to agree with Cruiser, this was a project that 'had it's 15 mins of fame' and the locals blew it. I seriously doubt any success in reviving such anytime in the next decade. Many more eggs to fry in more agreeable and useful locations for rail service.

jmp883 wrote:Cruiser939 wrote:

....the merits of this service (of which there are little; don't fool yourself) is useless.

Useless service???? Have you ever had the pleasure of sitting on I-80 or NJ-15 during the morning or afternoon rush hours? NYSW commuter service is a much needed service, especially west of Butler. I'm sure many of those Sparta NIMBY's are stuck in that same rush hour traffic every day and I find it very hard to believe that they are that ignorant to see the advantage that commuter train service would offer them. This would not be a useless service.

I have been caught in the traffic plenty of times on I-80 and rt.15. You must have some misconceptions about this project if you think that a couple of trains are going to clear up that traffic problem. Again, this is useless waste of funds for multiple agreements with NYS&W, new infrastructure, new equipment, new service costs...

I admire all of you people who think that any rail project must be a success and that a couple of trains will make any traffic problems go away (kinda reminds me of Mary Poppins "just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down") but your are disillusioned. There are much more worthwhile projects to undertake with what little money we already don't have.

uzplayer wrote:

cruiser939 wrote:Whether or not the the T&E employees here support this project is useless. Heck, it doesn't even matter whether us management types support this. It has to do with politics and money; it's that simple. Whether or not JT and Jim put little patches on their bags supporting this or I walk around the office talking about the merits of this service (of which there are little; don't fool yourself) is useless.

Cruiser... I notice you tend to be a very negative individual. Whether or not it is because you never found a true cause to believe in or support, I have no idea. Nevertheless, you out of all people should know that any cause starts with one person, supported by others, which eventually grows into a major effort. I fully do not expect to succeed immediately within the first year...although if I do, then all power to it. At the end, it will take at least 1.5 to 2 years to get the funds and go-ahead. The tracks are there, and the technology exists to do something that will positively impact the community and the region at large. The question is, will you support it?

Forgive me for being blunt cruiser... But I think you have been in the business so long, that you have become biased to the possibilities. I think you need to start exploring new, creative and at the end, inexpensive and efficient alternatives to helping residents in your home state get access to critical opportunities, of which will at the end, help keep everyone on this forum, and outside of this forum stay employed and access new opportunities.

That's my two cents on the subject. Say what you will. But at the end, I doubt you can challenge this one.

Your problem is that you confuse realism for negativism; I'm the former. Look at the political and economic environment around us right now and try and justify this project based on the affected population and it's possible benefits. I know you'll say something like "take what you can get" or "if you build it, passengers will come" but I can't share your sentiments based on my knowledge. I've already said that my support is inconsequential to this. Projects are determined by politicians, not individuals at HQ. If/when you digest that, you will have a much better understanding of how stuff works here. It doesn't matter how much practical use a project has, if a politician thinks it'll gain them some support, well then that's just what they'll do. Look at that abomination that was (and still technically is) the Passaic-Bergen Line. I've never been accused of being in this business too long before. I'm sure those on this board who know me are probably all laughing at that notion. I believe there is much more to be gained from improving existing service as opposed to investing funds into this project.

Cruiser939 wrote:

I admire all of you people who think that any rail project must be a success and that a couple of trains will make any traffic problems go away

I can't speak for all those posting here, but I never said that NYSW commuter service would be a success or that it would make the traffic problem go away. You can have a 10-track commuter railroad with the maximum amount of trains running on them paralleling a 10-lane superhighway all the way from Scranton, PA to Hoboken and you'll still have traffic problems on the highways. If the trains don't carry enough people to at least break even, if not make an actual profit, then you can consider the service as being unsuccessful. People also have to remember that, even if the service were to be instituted you're not going to see a change overnight. It could take months to see the effect of new rail service.

Unfortunately I can't use mass transit because of the particular hours I work and I know I'm not the only commuter in NJ in that situation. Believe me, if I could ride a train (or bus) to work I would do it in a heartbeat. Saving all that gas would be a blessing. I'm sure there are many other commuters sitting on I-80 and Rt 15 who would do the same if the option was made available to them. Of course, the flip side of the coin is that there are people out there who won't (not can't) use mass transit for their own, probably selfish, reasons. They're also the ones who are probably charter members of the NIMBY club.

Will traffic problems ever totally be solved by adding additional trains and bus service? Of course not. All I'm saying is that something needs to be done to help the situation in Morris and Sussex Counties, and the NYSW service could have been one way to do that.

Well, look at how long it has taken the Cut-Off to get to the point it is at. As much as forward thinking is a good thing, we need to get some of the unrealized projects moving first before we keep adding to this list of expansion projects.

CarterB wrote:Uh Huh, and where are the Sparta NIMBY'S now?? Sussex County shoulda been to the fore on this years ago before Sparta nixed the idea and it died. Coulda, shoulda, woulda...years ago without the NIMBYs

Screw Sussex, end service at Butler, build a yard near the Charlottburg reservoir. It would be a massive waste of money to extend service all the way to Sparta, with a whole lot of nothing in between.

I'd agree about Butler, where the commuter zone used to end. But I think the Sussex County folk want to get traffic off Rte 23 AND Rte 15.

CarterB wrote:I'd agree about Butler, where the commuter zone used to end. But I think the Sussex County folk want to get traffic off Rte 23 AND Rte 15.

How much traffic will the train draw away? Enough to warrant spending hundreds of millions rebuilding a snakelike ROW which traverses a whole lot of nothing between Butler and Sparta? Newfoundland and Stockholm (the two proposed intermediate stations) would probably generate less than 500 passengers per day.

There's no room for anything in Butler. Even if you could shoehorn a yard into there somehow there's no room anywhere for parking.