Northeast Regional 188 - Accident In Philadelphia

scoostraw wrote:Feds Trying to Determine If Amtrak Engineer Was Using Phone

Hardly news - we all knew the NTSB was going to look at this from the moment the accident happened.

Data used doesn't mean much these days. Modern phones go out and do stuff on their own - download email, update apps, check twitter, etc. All without any human intervention. It is sometimes difficult to get them to stop this, in fact.

I hope for his sake that the calls and texts were all while he was in DC before setting off in #188. They might in fact be able to use cell tower records to easily determine where he was at the time these calls and texts took place.

scoostraw wrote:Feds Trying to Determine If Amtrak Engineer Was Using Phone

Investigators are combing through phone records, locomotive data, radio transmissions and surveillance video to determine if the engineer in last week's deadly Amtrak derailment was using his cellphone while at the controls, federal authorities said Wednesday as union officials offered new details on how the engineer spent the hours before the crash.

Brandon Bostian's phone records show calls were made, text messages were sent and data was used the day of the crash, the National Transportation Safety Board said, but it remains unclear if the phone was used while the train was in motion.

Investigators won't be able to make that determination until after a time-consuming analysis comparing time stamps from Bostian's subpoenaed phone records with those from an on-board data recorder, video and other sources, the NTSB said.

Link: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/feds ... e-31183861" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is nothing there that is abnormal from any other investigation, in the post-Chatsworth era.

https://youtu.be/G3ICaHHwUJU

Brief video taken from window of Train 141 yesterday passing the curve. Work crews continuing repairs.

So we're over a week out, and it's interesting but not unexpected to see how things are shaking out. CNN has moved on to the latest crisis. A moron reporter at a local station is trying to make a big deal out of it. And nobody is looking at the bigger perspective.

These 8 deaths may be the only passenger train non-grade crossing incidents this year. This is compared to 30,000-ish auto accidents every year and 400,000 smoking related deaths every year. You don't see the dimwit reporter out radar-ing cars, despite the fact that many drivers consider the speed limit to be a lower limit rather than upper. Nor despite the fact that cars are rarely maintained properly or inspected, as compared to 90-day inspections for all engines and rules stating that equipment with broken safety devices cannot leave the originating station. You don't see Schumer standing in the middle of the highway making noise about the awful drivers.

This is a sad tragedy for many people but I'm glad the news is finally moving on to the latest hysteria and leaving the pros to pick up the pieces.

My first post here, thanks for having me.
Wish I could have been engineer but went into health; still stress, but of a different type.

Regarding the phone records, my phone stamps everything with a date and time as do most.
Phone company records can triangulate location of the phone based upon the towers that
handled the signal. I'm sure the NTSB is bogged down with conspiracy theorists and so they keep tight control
over the info they let in and out.

As much as I hope the engineer gets a fair hearing, the onus is all on him to mediate what seems to be a problem
with situational awareness. The tracks, signals and railcars all seem to have been squeeky clean. The trains
travelling north just before #188 apparently reported not concerns with the tracks and the tracks were checked earlier in the day.

JackRussell wrote:

scoostraw wrote:Feds Trying to Determine If Amtrak Engineer Was Using Phone

Hardly news - we all knew the NTSB was going to look at this from the moment the accident happened.

Data used doesn't mean much these days. Modern phones go out and do stuff on their own - download email, update apps, check twitter, etc. All without any human intervention. It is sometimes difficult to get them to stop this, in fact.

I hope for his sake that the calls and texts were all while he was in DC before setting off in #188. They might in fact be able to use cell tower records to easily determine where he was at the time these calls and texts took place.

The FRA rule for personal electronic devices such as cellphones is that they must be turned off whenever the train is in motion. If turned off there cannot be any transmissions or actions by the phone.

Ken W2KB wrote:The FRA rule for personal electronic devices such as cellphones is that they must be turned off whenever the train is in motion. If turned off there cannot be any transmissions or actions by the phone.

Yes and no ... the rule applies differently for someone in direct operation of a locomotive (e.g. the engineer) than it does for a brakeman/fireman (e.g. someone in the locomotive, but not actively operating it) ... vs a conductor or other crew travelling within a passenger train, or in a trailing piece of equipment (e.g., caboose) in a freight train.

And the railroad's rules, and how the railroad applies the FRA rule, also apply.

for instance, at my railroad, ALL crew (regardless of whether or not they're the engineer, or where they are located within the train), the electronics must be turned off and stowed in your grip the whole time you are on duty.

At a minimum, if you are the engineer, then yes, it must be off and in the bag. You cannot turn it on and make calls while stopped. You must deboard the locomotive, stand a prescribed safe distance away, and only then can you turn it on and make your phone call.

The sole exception to this rule : calling 911 in case of emergency.

That is really a stupid article. It basically says "we don't know whether or not he was using the phone at the time of the crash." But it makes him look like he might have been. There is no evidence at this time that that is the case. One could say that investigators still aren't sure whether I robbed a bank this morning, until they find out, no, I didn't. What's next, investigators aren't sure whether or not Bostian decided to go back to the cafe car for a coffee at the time of the accident? Maybe I shouldn't give them any ideas.

ryanov wrote:That is really a stupid article.

Agreed. All the coverage fundamentally (sensationally/willfully?) misunderstands what the NTSB is doing, which is a real pity because the NTSB is *soooo* careful about saying that they are just collecting information, and the media can't grasp that the NTSB is 80% a dispassionate collector of facts (with the 5% narrative and 15% blame/causal/recommendation to come last)

Early on - the day after, IIRC - it was reported that in the wake of the crash, the engineer felt around for his bag, pulled out his cellphone, turned it on, and called in to report the crash. I believe that came from his lawyer as reported by either CNN or the NBC affiliate station in Philadelphia (I was going back-n-forth between their two websites at the time). So, it would appear that the engineer is on record as claiming that his cellphone was turned off and stowed in his bag.

Obviously, I don't know what carrier the engineer uses, but my cellphone company's website gives me spreadsheet access to my phone calls and text messages. Presuming that all carriers are, more or less, created equal, there's nothing particular "time consuming" about combing through these records - provided you are looking for events at a specific point in time, as opposed to combing through the records looking to see if he ever used his phone while operating a train. So, odds are that they already know if he was or wasn't using his phone in the cab. And odds are that he wasn't else that would have already been leaked or officially said.

Arlington wrote:

ryanov wrote:That is really a stupid article.

Agreed. All the coverage fundamentally (sensationally/willfully?) misunderstands what the NTSB is doing, which is a real pity because the NTSB is *soooo* careful about saying that they are just collecting information, and the media can't grasp that the NTSB is 80% a dispassionate collector of facts (with the 5% narrative and 15% blame/causal/recommendation to come last)

Doubly agreed. CNN is trying to sell advertising and in the process, creating quite unfair clickbait. Right now if they found out the engineer had a history of tying his necktie in an abnormal manner, they'd splash it across the homepage with something like "Was engineer asphyxiated and how many times was he warned" followed by a lead paragraph of "the engineer was warned many times that tying your necktie the wrong way might cause airway blockage" and then go on to cite a Brooks Brothers salesman about necktie tying... all the while, we have no bloody idea if that has anything to do with anything or if he even wore a necktie on duty.

Tadman wrote:These 8 deaths may be the only passenger train non-grade crossing incidents this year.

I certainly hope so ... this one incident reflects roughly a third of the average passenger fatalities for a year.

As far as the comparisons to highway death rates, comparing deaths per TRILLIONS of passenger miles on the road vs millions of miles on passenger rail. Comparing millions of vehicles with no fixed guideways and primarily amateur drivers to thousands of larger vehicles operated solely by professionals. It is hardly a fair comparison.

It is a good thing that the passenger death rate on passenger rail is a tenth of the death rate on US highways. It is a bad thing that even a system operated solely by professionals (engineers, maintainers and controllers) still kills as many people as it does each year. And on the freight side more professional railroaders will be killed running this nation's trains than the passenger fatality count. I believe the system can, and should, be safer.

Noel Weaver wrote: And no Boston Job out of New Haven did more than three round trips in a seven day period...

I think Noel is saying that in the New Haven Railroad days no engine crews worked through between New York (GCT/NYP) and Boston. Engine crews changed at New Haven CT.

It's also been speculated that passengers on 188 were at some risk of having another train plow into the wreckage. I would be interested in knowing the timeline for how quickly service was suspended -- I expect it will be in the NTSB report when it comes out (sometime next year probably) -- but has anyone seen anything? How quickly after 188 derailed did Amtrak RTCs know they had a major problem at Shore?

How about Septa? There are four tracks on the NEC at Frankford Jct and from aerial photos of the wreck it looks like the inbound track Septa Trenton Line trains use might not have been fouled by wreckage but the outbound track definitely was. How quickly was Septa alerted to shut down service I wonder.

Some of the pre Amtrak stories we're seeing about work hours may have been in the times of 14 or 16 hour limits under the Federal Hours of Service rules. A 10 hour rest period was also required back then.
Also back then, Flagmen (remember them?) were often required to protect adjacent tracks in both directions after an Emergency brake application.

What were the car locations of the fatalities? Anyone in the business (1st) car survive?