Northeast Regional 188 - Accident In Philadelphia

his shift was not even close to 12 hours , it basically is round trip from NY to DC 3.5 hours each way.

Gare_NY wrote:However, make no mistake about it: there will be criminal action against Bostian, for at the very least, involuntary manslaughter. Someone up-thread provided a rather good distinction between "accident" and "collision" - if Bostian truly was mistakenly accelerating out of the first turn (believing it to be the second), it can be argued that he exhibited negligence.

However.. you don't walk away from 8 fatalities without some sort of repercussion. The families of the deceased will pursue this if the local DA won't.

You made a good case. Ricky Gates got manslaughter counts on his record as a result, as did the train operator of the NYCT IRT 4 express that crashed at Union Square in 1991 when going 40 on a 10 mph switch.

Great, institute a safety plan that has 300 people sit patiently inside a burning inferno to avoid one or two people being run over a by a fire truck. Friggin brilliant! Hmmm, let's see, should I risk being burned to death? Or, should I exit and risk the billion to one shot of being flattened by a 20 ton vehicle? If you chose the first, please dial 911 and tell them you need to be 302'd.

Getting back on topic, I'm not advocating that once involved in a transportation accident you instantly transform into Ricky Bobby. In many situations, it is prudent to stay put and wait. A train accident in electrified territory; especially like this one that did not involve any fuel bearing equipment and a low risk of fire is a great example of staying put being a safer option. As for jumping out quickly because another train might be arriving, I can't remember the last time a train plowed into an already crashed train out on a main.

the sarge wrote: ... I can't remember the last time a train plowed into an already crashed train out on a main.

Metro-North Fairfield comes to mind. Fortunately no one killed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairfield_train_crash" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Having more than one in the cab is not necessarily a panacea. There were three engineers in VIA 92's.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Bur ... derailment" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rohr turbo wrote:

the sarge wrote: ... I can't remember the last time a train plowed into an already crashed train out on a main.

Metro-North Fairfield comes to mind. Fortunately no one killed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairfield_train_crash" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Norristown High Speed Line derailment at West Overbrook around 1985 or 86 is another.
Kids put debris on the track and derailed a northbound car and then it was struck by a southbound.

8th Notch wrote:

TrainPhotos wrote:So basically ACES being turned on there would have detected a problem and put the appropriate signal aspects up? Then I guess you wouldn't have a NJT x move from atlatic city line, or SEPTA revenue or other train on a track 1 doing track speed in either direction into the wreck all ready there? Am I understanding this correctly?

ACSES and cab signals are 2 separate systems, the only time ACSES and the cab signals talk to each other is when you are approaching an interlocking on a Restricting cab. If ACSES was turned on it would have enforced the 50 mph around the curve by first displaying the 50 mph restriction (prior to the actual restriction) on the Aspect display unit and a alarm would start sounding until the engineer acknowledges and applies the brake. Either you acknowledge it and put on enough brake to satisfy it or it will put you in a penalty if it thinks you are approaching the restriction at a speed higher then the predetermined braking rate.

Thank you for that fascinating explanation! So, basically, if it were turned on, this wreck may have been a delayed train instead, due to the throttle possibly being nudged to maximum right before the curve with its speed restriction and correlated drop in signal aspect? I am assuming the engineer would need to explain the situation to dispatcher before proceeding if the system stopped the train(?)...

rohr turbo wrote:Metro-North Fairfield comes to mind. Fortunately no one killed.

I was thinking more in line of a post wreck collision were there was enough time for the dust to settle or time for some people to egress, but yes, the Fairfield and the incident Car 60 submitted does answer my question 100% correctly; thank you. I know there may be a few more out there, overseas?

Going back in time a ways, the Thompson CT wreck in 1891 ended up involving 4 trains, 2 of which plowed into the derailed cars of the first 2 that had collided head on due to a dispatching error:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_East ... rain_Wreck

Jon

As far as evacuating passengers I think each incident is different. Oftentimes when trains break down or lose power crews insist passengers remain on board until they can be evacuated safely by police. There's a real danger to passengers exiting the train on their own from things like live catenary that may be down, trains on other tracks, hazards on the right-of-way (especially dangerous at night), etc.

I heard one woman who was a passenger on 188 describe the first Philadelphia police officers who arrived telling passengers to remain in the cars until more officers/firefighters arrived and an orderly evacuation would begin. That sounds to me like the best advice. But each situation is different. I don't think you can make a one-size-fits-all rule. For instance if the train catches fire than you need to get off period.

TrainPhotos wrote:So basically ACES being turned on there would have detected a problem and put the appropriate signal aspects up? Then I guess you wouldn't have a NJT x move from atlatic city line, or SEPTA revenue or other train on a track 1 doing track speed in either direction into the wreck all ready there? Am I understanding this correctly?

SEPTA and NJT have adopted ACSES as their flavor of PTC so their trains are/will be equipped with it.

I trust the question of whether Amtrak Train & Engine crews are subject to Hours of Service has been laid to rest, but the question regarding the fairness of crew assignments appears to remain open.

I can report here that a round trip NY-Wash and Boston-NY for Train, has historical support, for that is how both the PRR and NH assigned crews. They were for purposes of Hours of Service on "continuous time", which at times resulted in crews being "outlawed" and relief crews being called. While for pay purposes, the PRR paid crews for two separate trips of 226 miles (gotta be paid for that backup move to Broad Street), the New Haven got more aggressive with the pay structure and paid one continuous trip for Train 464 miles from Penn and 458 from GCT. This latter pay structure became advantageous when, pursuant to a 1964 National agreement, the first 100 Engine, 150 Train, had rate increase applied to it, where excess miles over that "day" continued to be paid at the lower rate. That differential was maintained until Amtrak and other passenger roads adopted an hourly pay structure.

Therefore, a continuous turn for Amtrak Train and Engine crews is quite simply "nothing new".

Gilbert B Norman wrote:I trust the question of whether Amtrak Train & Engine crews are subject to Hours of Service has been laid to rest, but the question regarding the fairness of crew assignments appears to remain open.

I can report here that a round trip NY-Wash and Boston-NY for Train, has historical support, for that is how both the PRR and NH assigned crews. They were for purposes of Hours of Service on "continuous time", which at times resulted in crews being "outlawed" and relief crews being called. While for pay purposes, the PRR paid crews for two separate trips of 226 miles (gotta be paid for that backup move to Broad Street), the New Haven got more aggressive with the pay structure and paid one continuous trip for Train 464 miles from Penn and 458 from GCT. This latter pay structure became advantageous when, pursuant to a 1964 National agreement, the first 100 Engine, 150 Train, had rate increase applied to it, where excess miles over that "day" continued to be paid at the lower rate. That differential was maintained until Amtrak and other passenger roads adopted an hourly pay structure.

Therefore, a continuous turn for Amtrak Train and Engine crews is quite simply "nothing new".

Sorry to differ on the above but a NY - Wash or a NY - Boston trip is a lot different today than it was under either the PRR or the NHRR. First off the jobs did not work every day of the week or I should say five days a week. We were paid on a mileage basis instead of an hourly basis and we always had a day off between trips out of New Haven with only one or two exceptions in the case of relief jobs. Same thing to Washington, one trip and a day off was the norm in both cases and no Boston Job out of New Haven did more than three round trips in a seven day period. For a long time I had a relief job which went east out of New Haven on Saturday, Sunday and Tuesday but I got through Sunday AM around 3:30 AM in New Haven and did not go back out until around 9:00 PM that Sunday evening and I had 24 hours off from Monday AM till Tuesday AM. Every week I worked three different trains making different stops in each direction every trip. The big key was that I had a great engineer to work with and I really learned the Boston end of the railroad with him. Many trips I actually ran the job both was and Saturday for example, east on the Merchants which on Saturday usually had a single FL-9 and 5 or maybe 6 cars and returned on 187 which was mostly mail with a couple of coaches and a sleeper WB and three FL-9's. It was a long train of 20 plus cars some trips and we made all local stops from Boston to Providence. I got good experience on that job for sure.
Another big item in the past was that all passenger jobs had two people on the engine so in many cases the engineer would run the train part way and the fireman would run the train part way. Many of the firemen on New Haven - Boston jobs were qualified engineers as they would be usually next in line for promotion. Some promotion from a Boston firing job to the Oak Point Spare Board.
One more thing, Ricky Gates got what he deserved, jail time and I think the reason was drugs being involved and a willful violation of the rules by blocking the cab signal whistle. There are no such willful violations in this case and I don't think jail is warranted, the poor guy has already been through enough and it is only going to get worse for him. There is a big difference between this one and Back Bay as well, this guy has been truthful with everybody on this one but the guy responsible for Back Bay is still hiding from the truth. I will not discuss this one any further, I've already said more than I intended to say.
Noel Weaver

Feds Trying to Determine If Amtrak Engineer Was Using Phone

Investigators are combing through phone records, locomotive data, radio transmissions and surveillance video to determine if the engineer in last week's deadly Amtrak derailment was using his cellphone while at the controls, federal authorities said Wednesday as union officials offered new details on how the engineer spent the hours before the crash.

Brandon Bostian's phone records show calls were made, text messages were sent and data was used the day of the crash, the National Transportation Safety Board said, but it remains unclear if the phone was used while the train was in motion.

Investigators won't be able to make that determination until after a time-consuming analysis comparing time stamps from Bostian's subpoenaed phone records with those from an on-board data recorder, video and other sources, the NTSB said.

Link: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/feds ... e-31183861" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

rohr turbo wrote:

the sarge wrote: ... I can't remember the last time a train plowed into an already crashed train out on a main.

Metro-North Fairfield comes to mind. Fortunately no one killed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairfield_train_crash" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are several accidents in England (and elsewhere in Europe) where this happened ...