Northeast Regional 188 - Accident In Philadelphia

I don't know how this thread went off the rails onto safe bus travels and automated planes & trains, without 2 men in the cab. Zero man crews don't belong in American railroading, PERIOD. Back on to topic.

A few pages back, the issue on windshield damage was brought up. I don't believe the crumpled sheet metal around the right side of the windshield is fresh. It looks like it was already repaired and painted over after previous debris/bird strikes. I'm very pro-Engineer on this case, but I'm not biased in the investigation. Hopefully the FBI will find a bullet in the cab or determine a wheel barrow load of bricks were dumped on this train, and take the pressure off this guy. Otherwise, he unfortunately messed up badly at the wrong time, while there isn't proper ACSES or PTC governing movement through the ghettos of Philly.

Like it was said on here already, if you are aware of reports of trains in the area getting shot at, are you going to start braking in the ghetto, or are you going to speed up & "floor it" so to speak ? That might explain why he exceeded the 80 MAS in the section prior to the Frankfort Jct curve.

Really? The ghetto is to blame? Operate your machinery over the speed 'cause of the ghetto?

I want the engineer to be blameless in this but really? The ghetto? Good G-d, how 1960s.

boatbuilder wrote above:
[[ Here is the result of a toaster hitting a turkey at 80 mph in Mansfield Mass. Imagine the impact of a brick thrown towards you as you are running towards it. ]]

In January of 2008 I was running east on the Hell Gate Line, when some kid tossed up a rock (BIGGER than a brick) from ground level and it hit the windshield of the AEM-7 I was running, coming up to Van Nest, at 60mph.

Rock shattered the windshield (spider-webbed it), but didn't come through.

I didn't throw the train into emergency. I just slowed down a bit, called the dispatcher to let him know what had happened, and kept going. Couldn't see out the windshield any more, so had to stick head out the window a bit to be sure of seeing what was ahead. Made it into New Haven where they changed out the engine for the rest of the trip.

The windshields on the HHP-8 engines were much thicker, at least 3 inches thick, perhaps greater. I don't know, but I will -guess- that the windshields on the new electrics are somewhat thicker than on the AEM-7's but not quite as thick as on the HHP's.

I don't buy the story about being hit by some object. I predict the best "answer" that forensics will be able to provide is "we can't say for certain". From the photos I've seen, it looks like the left-front corner of the engine on 188 plowed into the dirt and roadbed, got torn up, and it seems that the flexing and damage to that part of the engine transmitted to the windshield, cracking and deforming it.

I could be wrong, but that's my assessment.

Gerry6309 wrote: If there is a gap in the catenary, trains may be able to lower pans and coast through. Good for loco hauled trains and Acela, more difficult for MUs with multiple pans. They do it on the Mianus River Bridge in Connecticut aka the wireless bridge.

On the Mianus River bridge, the catenary rises so that pantographs do not need to be lowered. The pantographs extend fully, the train coasts across, then the high catenary gradually lowers to resume contact. Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuiA7kkkEr4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As WSJ and others are reporting, full NEC service is expected to resume Monday (tomorrow) - http://www.wsj.com/articles/amtrak-to-r ... 1431897774" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The first train out from WAS north is at 0400, so they're only missing the 0315 Regional (canceled).

I took NJT info NY Penn from Trenton early this morning; the lack of activity on the railroad and in the Trenton station was downright spooky. Beyond the Newark airport stop the train was standing room only. Somewhere around Linden or Rahway we met an Amtrak move, headed West, pushed by an electric. I was surprised to see it; are they staging equipment somewhere down the line (maybe Morrisville) in anticipation of the line reopening?

EDM5970 wrote:I took NJT info NY Penn from Trenton early this morning; the lack of activity on the railroad and in the Trenton station was downright spooky. Beyond the Newark airport stop the train was standing room only. Somewhere around Linden or Rahway we met an Amtrak move, headed West, pushed by an electric. I was surprised to see it; are they staging equipment somewhere down the line (maybe Morrisville) in anticipation of the line reopening?

I was at Penn Station yesterday and it seem alot less crowded than usual. It seems like service south of NYP makes good ridership despite limited capacity.

Service will resume tomorrow at 5:54am from Philly and 5:30am from New York per Amtrak.com

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentSe ... 1628184602" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Relax. It has been widely reported in the media about projectiles hitting a SEPTA train, Amtrak requesting FBI analysis, and the problems with rock throwing ne'er do wells in that area. Some of the previous posters were engaging in wild speculation. The projectile theory can and should be reasonably discussed. What is ruled out is all of the left-field stuff that was running rampant by a couple of members early in the thread BEFORE a lot of the facts and possibilities were being reported.

Tommy's point is that the projectile theory is NOT a fact yet is correct; let's not assume it is. I've seen a few posts about "the rock throwers", etc. No one's established that yet; it's a possible theory. "Possible rock throwers" might be more accurate. And I mistakenly responded with the term bullets in my post; that is also a theory/possibility. I guess what we should say is "theory". In any case, my response wasn't perfectly clear.

Moderation isn't a perfect science. Be a little patient. We manage to keep the thread from devolving into chaos and flame wars. That doesn't make us the Gestapo, and such an insinuation is offensive. Tommy's acknowledgement of the difficult task we have is appreciated. If you have a question about the moderation, PM the moderators. I've been delegating quite a bit, and appreciate the work my fellow admins and mods do. We all have a lot on our plate; this isn't our primary job.

We're all passionate about railroads. Think before you post. That's all we ask. And that goes for us moderators and admin's too.

BR&P wrote:

Tommy Meehan wrote:
We have been warned repeatedly that speculation is subject to disciplinary action. The latest was on Friday evening in this thread.

Here are the rules. Read them and heed them
....

Rumors and speculation without citation are subject to redaction without warning.

Well, I guess I had not realized the Gestapo had banned speculation. So we are limited to reading what is in the media, and repeating it here verbatim? That sure takes the fun out of it for me.

It's sad - we have some knowledgeable and perceptive people on here and I have enjoyed the evaluation and speculation on this thread. But when the forum seeks to limit the use of our brains and our exchange of ideas, what's the point of being on here at all?

[quote="At 12:10 PM on May 17, 2015, In an article entitled "Amtrak investigator dispels bullet theory", Rebecca Kaplan of the Face The Nation (cbs) staff"]

Amtrak investigator dispels bullet theory

Robert Sumwalt, a member of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) working on last week's Amtrak derailment that killed eight people, expressed skepticism that someone shot at the train before it came off the tracks last Tuesday night.

"I'd like to downplay that part. I've now seen the fracture pattern. It looks like something about the size of a grapefruit, if you will. And it did not even penetrate the entire windshield," Sumwalt said in an interview on CBS' "Face the Nation" Sunday.

The NTSB said last week that a projectile appears to have hit the windshield of the train prior to the crash. The FBI is helping the agency analyze the fractural pattern of crack in the {windshield, but Sumwalt cautioned that there is still not enough information to determine whether it was related to the train derailment.

"It could be completely coincidental or it could be causal. And that's exactly what we intend to find out," he said. [/quote]

Read more at the Face The Nation's web site

Dutch wrote above:
[[ no conversation on projectile on tapes.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/ntsb-investiga" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... d=31101697 ]]

The "projectile" argument is destined to become the "MacGuffin" of this wreck.

If that term is unfamiliar to you, google it and "hitchcock" together...

yes and some off record insinuations have been made to terrorist attack , but ask yourself does terrorism look for just a few casualties and a bunch of broken ribs ???
no, they would be looking at many casualties , and this is just not type of incident to do it ..

Silverliner wrote above:
[[ And as we all know, just because it is not on tapes, does not mean the conversations were not had ]]

These new engines almost certainly have a "cockpit recorder" (as do the HHP's and Acela cabs) that record the last 10 minutes of in-cab sounds on a continuous loop.

PLAY BACK THE TAPES (It's really digitized audio these days, and I'm sure Amtrak has already done that).
Even if the radio recorders missed the transmission, it should be on the in-cab recorder.
Along with any sounds of something of consequence striking the windshield.

One thing I don't know (because I retired before the new engines arrived) is whether these engines also have an in-cab camera (as distinguished from the forward-facing "witness" camera).
Others in this forum will know the answer.
Do they, or don't they?

Playback from the camera should tell the investigators everything they need to know -- and see.

My explanation (as posted here earlier):
The guy lost his bearings as to exactly where he was.
Could have been fatigue from the tough trip down.
Maybe he was just tired.

He was accelerating, believing (not realizing) that he was already past the S-curve.
When he realized that where he actually was, was not where he THOUGHT he was, he dumped it.

I believe they call this "Occam's Razor".

Have you ever been driving down a stretch of road somewhere, lost in thought, or just tired?
Have you looked around, suddenly thinking, "where am I?"
And just afterwards, having moved a little further, have you realized, "oh, THAT'S where I'm at!" ?
I have.
I'll admit a few times, even on the engine.

It's easy to stomp on the brakes in the car.
It's NOT so easy to get a train slowed down from 100 to 60-50 in such short order...

Occam's Razor.

DutchRailnut wrote:yes and some off record insinuations have been made to terrorist attack , but ask yourself does terrorism look for just a few casualties and a bunch of broken ribs ???
no, they would be looking at many casualties , and this is just not type of incident to do it ..

We are fortunate in our country that terrorists (other than a few obvious examples) have not been as successful as they would desire to be.

We also have a tendency to use the word "terrorist" when other terms would apply. Not every criminal act is an act of terrorism - yet some people like to use that label indiscriminately.

There was criminal activity in Philadelphia on the night of this incident. This train clearly passed through the area with the criminal activity near the time of the criminal activity. Whether or not that criminal activity affected the operation of this train is still under investigation.

From an engineer in the TRAINS forum:

Did a little test today..
Took 3 apples to work with me, and had my engineer make a track speed pass….our max speed is 20 mph.
20 feet away from the tracks, with the locomotive headed almost head on to me, I managed to get one apple out of the three into the windshield, and our MK1500Ds have big windshields.
Keep in mind I played short stop on league teams and all through high school, and am a pretty good thrower.
So with what appears to be three impacts, I can’t see one person hitting the windshield of a 50 mph train with anything close to the size stated, “something the size of a grapefruit.”
Go outside and find a rock or brick that big, and see how far you can throw it….not far at all, so if, and this is a big if, those are rock impacts, then first, there was more than one person throwing, second, they had to be close, really close to the tracks, like a few feet away just to hit the train with something that big and heavy and that person would show up on the locomotives camera.
So, if one assumes those are bullet impacts, then, as a person who used to carry a gun as part of his job, I can categorically state that a person would have had to use a large caliber semi- automatic pistol and be a very accomplished shooter to get three on target, and again, they would have to be close to the racks, 50 feet or under, and in a position that had the train heading almost directly at them, so again, the camera would most likely show them.
That said, as a person who also hunted most of my life, I can say someone with a semi-auto rifle from 100 yards out would have a good chance of getting three on target.
You couldn’t do three with a lever or bolt action rifle, but a semi-automatic like a AR15 would do just fine.
Keep in mind the windshield isn’t bullet proof, but bullet resistant, and is made of several laminates or layers, add in the bullets velocity and the trains forward speed and you could do some severe damage to a windshield…I doubt you could penetrate it with anything under a .50 caliber, but the damage I saw in the photos is quite possible with a .223, maybe a 30-30 or 308.
As for the post that suggested a full automatic gun, keep in mind most full autos are not very accurate, especially the big bore guns, and a small caliber gun wouldn’t do that much damage, a Glock 9mm wouldn’t do that to a thick windshield even adding the trains speed to the impact velocity.
No matter what you see in the movies, even small caliber .22 full autos are hard to shoot well, they are designed to spray an area with bullets, not sharp shoot with, and if it was a full auto, then the shooter would had had to police his brass, and looking for 20, 30 or 50 shell casings in the dark, and finding all of them, then escaping un seen seems very unlikely.
That said, I went out in the back yard a little while ago, and using my AR15, pretended to shoot of three rounds….it would be quite possible to get three on target, and police the brass, tuck the rifle under a coat and walk away in under 15 seconds.
Now, I am not stating those are bullet impacts, but it is possible.
And for those who are saying the impacts don’t look like a bullet made them, exactly how many bullet impacts on moving locomotives windshields have you seen?

Having grown up with rifles and such, and being a 14 year old out in the woods with my buddies and our rifles, we shot up a lot of junk, including a ¾” thick sheet of Lucite, (Plexiglas)

With my 308, from 50 feet, the bullet did not penetrate, but did make a large spider web pattern and took a small divot out of the front.

My friends Winchester 30-30 made a perfect star burst pattern, and managed to pop a small chip off the inside of the sheet.

Based on my experience, a laminate windshield would not be penetrated…it would show a pattern, depending on the angle of the shot, but unless it was a straight or head on shot, I would not expect a perfect starburst…I would expect crazing and a large spider web pattern radiating away from the impact.

For what it is worth, those look like bullet impacts to me, impacts from a medium caliber hunting rifle.